Refunded, here's why

[Gared]

This thread is for sharing an opinion and also because I don't leave negative reviews unless I feel strongly that the game warrants it. I especially avoid leaving negative reviews for a game that's in early Early Access stages.

In short, once I've realized that the core gameplay mechanic revolves around the repair box and what to shove there, the whole game lost a majority of its appeal to me. Obviously it's a core mechanic right now, and most likely not subject to change soon, or ever -> so that's a compelling reason for me to refund. As I've been looking for a different kind of experience.

I love games that have something to do with science, science fiction, engineering and technology. There's a deficit of games like this - the ones that depart from arcade and delve deeper.
That is to say, I'm not a real life engineer, or anything; just something I enjoy and appreciate about the world. After all, we are in a better world than ever thanks to rational thought and sciences - first and foremost.

As I looked at the presentation on the steam store page - screenshots and the trailer, read the description and the reviews, of course, - I was immediately captivated by the idea of grabbing the manual and figuring out what part of the pod does what exactly, how to repair it and deal with various hazards. Go down on physics - to knowledge of which I'm lacking - and electrical engineering. This is stimulating.

Sure enough, I expected game elements in all of this, simplifications, abstractions - it's not like I anticipated receiving an engineering course and a degree through the game.
But a box of magic that eats parts to fix other parts is not something that sits easy with me. It takes away something I might have done.
When it says "a micro management of systems down to every single component" - this is not what I expected. I expected to disassemble parts, to tinker and figure out how to reroute, economize and make do with what I have. In short, to manually solve the problem and feel good about it. But with the box it's basically a resource management game, rather than that of tinkering, taking away a portion of agency I wanted. Change the decor and scenery - and it might as well be the farm game or a game about enchanting or workshops.

I played for a couple hours - very tight within the refund period - but, ultimately, the box just kills the experience. The game is fun and I commend William for pulling this off alone and putting a game dedicated to space and engineering out here on Steam. This is very inspiring to the project I'm going right now, and I think that is takes a very dedicated mind and deep interest in sciences to pull off something like Tin Can.

I'll be monitoring the success of this game and I've decided to give it another shot on release.

[Silveressa]

Originally posted by Arkendight:

I'll be monitoring the success of this game and I've decided to give it another shot on release.

Just a small reminder, Steam tracks your total play time, so if you buy it again on the same account, your previously played time will count against your refund time window. (learned that the hard way with other EA titles)

But back OT:

I tend to agree with this, more so in that you need to start canniblizing the ship in about the first 5 minutes of play, lending to a somewhat repetitive loop every game on what parts should immediately yank and disassemble without serious penalty. (All the Yellow warning lights off every system, crt monitor from the grav generator, the entire emergency lighting system etc.)

Ideally, I would suggest perhaps introducing some manual repair options for broken devices, (even if it's some kind of mini game interface to rewire a transformer or reroute the internal nano lines on a sci-fi fuse, something more "you" and less "magic repair box" would be great.

Of course this also means you'd need to slow down the speed at which new incidents occur to give the player time to fix each thing manually, which might work good for pacing generally.

[Capt.Cliff™]

The Dev has assured that more options & features are to be added to Sandbox. This way we can create the style of game we want to play. See Sandbox.

[TinCanStudio]

I was thinking about a more complex repair interface for one of the future updates, but I have yet to decide how this could work.
Please keep in mind that this is very early in development. I am sorry Arkendight, that the game did not meet your expectations. I will keep your remarks and suggestions in mind and see how to push the game towards that direction.

[Capt.Cliff™]

Originally posted by TinCanStudio:

I was thinking about a more complex repair interface for one of the future updates, but I have yet to decide how this could work.
Please keep in mind that this is very early in development. I am sorry Arkendight, that the game did not meet your expectations. I will keep your remarks and suggestions in mind and see how to push the game towards that direction.

A functioning Sandbox might of solved this sad refund. .

[Gared]

Originally posted by Silveressa:

Just a small reminder, Steam tracks your total play time, so if you buy it again on the same account, your previously played time will count against your refund time window. (learned that the hard way with other EA titles)

I was unaware of that, thank you

Originally posted by TinCanStudio:

I was thinking about a more complex repair interface for one of the future updates, but I have yet to decide how this could work.
Please keep in mind that this is very early in development. I am sorry Arkendight, that the game did not meet your expectations. I will keep your remarks and suggestions in mind and see how to push the game towards that direction.

My opinion shouldn't sway your vision of the game though. I'm just honest with my perception and I think you are not at a fault here to apologize. You are going to have people coming and going for various reasons. I do appreciate that you listen.

It's easy to dream of the game, rather than coming up with the gameplay.

As for repair, as a suggestion, you could give players spare parts (not modules) to play with. Matter of fact, the first thing I did when I realized that the fuse might be busted - I rushed to that shelf that looks like storage bins (since I know fuses are generally pretty impossible to fix), but soon realized that those are just texture.
Better yet, if those parts are not whole parts by themselves, but the components. You could also give people a circuit with a unique look for every module (processor, fuse, pump), but the same simplified principle across each and every one of them, and let them play with wiring and rerouting.
Or keep it modular yet, with individual circuits.

This way salvaging your own pod is not a singular option, but players can also get creative.
There's nothing better than letting people surprise us and feel extra good from being creative with their solutions.

This can be simplified gameplay-wise in an old-school-sci-fi way: multitool. This way you can both empower the player to rewire, quickly weld and solder, clean the surfaces from carbon and oxidation, and reprogram modules. Or fix errors in circuit logic.

I'm going to stick around on forums and Discord
It's an exciting project and I wish you to succeed!

[Capt.Cliff™]

@ Arkendight

Would the Sandbox selection with features & options allowing you to create a game more suitable to your play style help??

[Gared]

Capt.Cliff, it sounds like a simple question on the surface, but when I think deeper about it - it sounds vague.

First, I'm ok with normal mode, sandbox usually means "no pressure" safe-zone, and it kind of defeats the purpose of the game where you try survive and live long enough to be rescued from the pod.

And then there's the question of what features and options are we talking about?

[Capt.Cliff™]

Originally posted by Arkendight:

There's the question of what features and options are we talking about?

All the usual things you find in Sandbox box mode games with some possible additions. Storm summoning, etc.

Sandbox does not necessarily defeat game objectives. Everyone is different & has a play style. Sandbox can allow this by giving enjoyment in areas of which players weren't happy with.

[Lightning Strike ⚡]

Originally posted by Capt.Cliff™:

Originally posted by Arkendight:

There's the question of what features and options are we talking about?

All the usual things you find in Sandbox box mode games with some possible additions. Storm summoning, etc.

Sandbox does not necessarily defeat game objectives. Everyone is different & has a play style. Sandbox can allow this by giving enjoyment in areas of which players weren't happy with.

plus as a point it allows training and experimentation for novices in a predictable environment, for example, if someone is having trouble with static/ion storms they can hop into the sandbox, summon one, and experiment with things to try to see what the storm can effect and what it can not, star event, etc.

[Urfisch]

I consider a refund too and cant understand the extreme positive reviews. Many things of the OP are legit. The game isnt complex in its mechanics. Only challenge is to choose the right part at the right time or doing multiple repairs at once. I expected some kind of what the presentation says: Feel like a crash course in engineering, in space, alone in a tin can!

So i was really disappointed, when i first started the game. I thought to deal with complex repairs, the manual in your hand while the alarm makes you feeling nervous. But all you do is changing the same parts again and again or recycle them, always under time pressure. For damaged parts, just put them into the "Repair Box". This is the main problem: There is no, i mean really no skill needed in thinking how machines work, how they might should work or how power flows. No experimenting with parts, disassemble them down to cables, boards and screws, putting them back together in a different way...testing, thinking, failing, rip of your hair. This is, what i expected and why i bought the game. I was suspecting it even might be too hard...but it was the other way round. Its so simple, that 15€ are quite much for such a simple game. I understand its early access. But it isnt fun at all. After 20 minutes i lost interest :( thats sad. I really wanted to like this game.

And btw, you dont get an electric shock, just by putting hands on a fuse...^^

[Capt.Cliff™]

@ Freekoly.

I understand exactly where your coming from. I feel the same too in some ways. I've touched on these points a little on Discord & got some support from the players there.

In saying that, we all acknowledge it's in EA so our expectations shouldn't really be to high. Also on the very positive side these Devs are exceptional. There hard at work constantly & a lot of what you've mentioned is on the list to be improved or added. Visit there Discord & check there impressive roadmap.

"And btw, you dont get an electric shock, just by putting hands on a fuse..."

Is this true, even if turned on?? Seemed to of made sense to me.

[Alf]

I've played for probably around 10 hours now, and in my experience every run has been slightly different.

If you keep using the repair box all the time, then every run will feel the same. However, constantly using the repair box is not really the intended way to play because scrapping components is inefficient.

The repair box should be an absolute last resort, because you lose more 'parts' by scrapping working components than you do by just replacing them with other working components. Not only will this make you survive longer, but you'll also find the game more engaging because you have to make difficult choices about which systems to borrow components from depending on what's broken and what's still working.

In normal mode it's possible to survive for over an hour without ever using the repair box. You should only repair a component if it's life critical, and if there's no other option remaining.

Also, adding to this complexity is the fact that while some systems are less useful than others, very few systems are completely useless. The main lights is the only system that you can get away with switching off and using as spare parts without any consequences for the rest of the game.

Everything else has a use, even the yellow caution lights (which by the way give very little repair parts). If you make it far into the game and you have data connectors and CRT monitors failing you will need those yellow lights to inform you that something in the system could be broken, prompting you to investigate.

[Urfisch]

Originally posted by Capt.Cliff™:

@ Freekoly.

I understand exactly where your coming from. I feel the same too in some ways. I've touched on these points a little on Discord & got some support from the players there.

In saying that, we all acknowledge it's in EA so our expectations shouldn't really be to high. Also on the very positive side these Devs are exceptional. There hard at work constantly & a lot of what you've mentioned is on the list to be improved or added. Visit there Discord & check there impressive roadmap.

"And btw, you dont get an electric shock, just by putting hands on a fuse..."

Is this true, even if turned on?? Seemed to of made sense to me.

Sure, i will buy the game again, if all these gaps are filled :) I appreciate the work, of course! The idea is exceptional! But i dont like to praise a game, which i dont wanna play in the current state. So, instead of giving a bad review, i write down my thoughts here and refund the game.

It depends on the fuse. But normally safety first...this counts for the construction of all electrical parts ;)

[TinCanStudio]

Originally posted by Freekoly (🎨+🔧):

I consider a refund too and cant understand the extreme positive reviews. Many things of the OP are legit. The game isnt complex in its mechanics. Only challenge is to choose the right part at the right time or doing multiple repairs at once. I expected some kind of what the presentation says: Feel like a crash course in engineering, in space, alone in a tin can!

So i was really disappointed, when i first started the game. I thought to deal with complex repairs, the manual in your hand while the alarm makes you feeling nervous. But all you do is changing the same parts again and again or recycle them, always under time pressure. For damaged parts, just put them into the "Repair Box". This is the main problem: There is no, i mean really no skill needed in thinking how machines work, how they might should work or how power flows. No experimenting with parts, disassemble them down to cables, boards and screws, putting them back together in a different way...testing, thinking, failing, rip of your hair. This is, what i expected and why i bought the game. I was suspecting it even might be too hard...but it was the other way round. Its so simple, that 15€ are quite much for such a simple game. I understand its early access. But it isnt fun at all. After 20 minutes i lost interest :( thats sad. I really wanted to like this game.

And btw, you dont get an electric shock, just by putting hands on a fuse...^^

Hey! I am sorry the game did not meet your expectations.
I feel like what you thought it would be is indeed different from what it is meant to be. The goal while making this game was not to go for something that would have you interact down to individual cables inside components, but rather to apply simple rules and have them form a complex whole. A lot of players with many hours spent on the game often express how surprised they are to still find new things about how the pod works even though they thought they had seen it all. Or they will experience situations they had not seen before, in the same way. The basis is simple, but the consequences of how these simple rules work are not. Yes, the game is mostly, at this point, about fixing components with a magic repair box. What is not simple is how do I chose what I need fixed? What strategy do I apply? Everything is a trade off. Maybe recycling buttons is the way to go, but then you might miss an alarm if your buzzer is dead. Going without transformer and fuse will be fine for a while, but as soon as your atomic pile goes crazy systems will be fried.
In the same way if you survive long enough you find yourself in a new situation, having to manage your pod with the bare minimum, and mostly with much less help on how to do diagnostics. If the main computer is fried, your data connector is missing, or you CRT is broken, then the only way to know what is broken is by understanding how every component works.
The game complexity is more about keeping an eye on everything, understanding it all, and not losing track of the big picture, even though this big picture is made of a lot of small rules. And for a lot of player, this is already extremely hard. To be honest, I really don't think you can have any clear idea of the scope of the game if you have played for less than an hour.

As for what we are planning, we do intend to add more complexity. If you have any suggestion, or ideas, feel free to join us on discord. The suggestion section is there and I read it every single day. We are building the game with the community and for the community, and I'm sure a lot of people there would support your ideas.

It is a small project. I've worked on it alone for a year and a half, and we released it in early access less than a month ago. Give us some time to make it grow. But of course, if it's not to your liking, you can get a refund and that's fair enough :) ! Maybe you should give it a chance for what it is, and not for what you'd like it to be?

Best

William

[Urfisch]

Originally posted by TinCanStudio:

Originally posted by Freekoly (🎨+🔧):

I consider a refund too and cant understand the extreme positive reviews. Many things of the OP are legit. The game isnt complex in its mechanics. Only challenge is to choose the right part at the right time or doing multiple repairs at once. I expected some kind of what the presentation says: Feel like a crash course in engineering, in space, alone in a tin can!

So i was really disappointed, when i first started the game. I thought to deal with complex repairs, the manual in your hand while the alarm makes you feeling nervous. But all you do is changing the same parts again and again or recycle them, always under time pressure. For damaged parts, just put them into the "Repair Box". This is the main problem: There is no, i mean really no skill needed in thinking how machines work, how they might should work or how power flows. No experimenting with parts, disassemble them down to cables, boards and screws, putting them back together in a different way...testing, thinking, failing, rip of your hair. This is, what i expected and why i bought the game. I was suspecting it even might be too hard...but it was the other way round. Its so simple, that 15€ are quite much for such a simple game. I understand its early access. But it isnt fun at all. After 20 minutes i lost interest :( thats sad. I really wanted to like this game.

And btw, you dont get an electric shock, just by putting hands on a fuse...^^

Hey! I am sorry the game did not meet your expectations.
I feel like what you thought it would be is indeed different from what it is meant to be. The goal while making this game was not to go for something that would have you interact down to individual cables inside components, but rather to apply simple rules and have them form a complex whole. A lot of players with many hours spent on the game often express how surprised they are to still find new things about how the pod works even though they thought they had seen it all. Or they will experience situations they had not seen before, in the same way. The basis is simple, but the consequences of how these simple rules work are not. Yes, the game is mostly, at this point, about fixing components with a magic repair box. What is not simple is how do I chose what I need fixed? What strategy do I apply? Everything is a trade off. Maybe recycling buttons is the way to go, but then you might miss an alarm if your buzzer is dead. Going without transformer and fuse will be fine for a while, but as soon as your atomic pile goes crazy systems will be fried.
In the same way if you survive long enough you find yourself in a new situation, having to manage your pod with the bare minimum, and mostly with much less help on how to do diagnostics. If the main computer is fried, your data connector is missing, or you CRT is broken, then the only way to know what is broken is by understanding how every component works.
The game complexity is more about keeping an eye on everything, understanding it all, and not losing track of the big picture, even though this big picture is made of a lot of small rules. And for a lot of player, this is already extremely hard. To be honest, I really don't think you can have any clear idea of the scope of the game if you have played for less than an hour.

As for what we are planning, we do intend to add more complexity. If you have any suggestion, or ideas, feel free to join us on discord. The suggestion section is there and I read it every single day. We are building the game with the community and for the community, and I'm sure a lot of people there would support your ideas.

It is a small project. I've worked on it alone for a year and a half, and we released it in early access less than a month ago. Give us some time to make it grow. But of course, if it's not to your liking, you can get a refund and that's fair enough :) ! Maybe you should give it a chance for what it is, and not for what you'd like it to be?

Best

William

Nice, you took some time to answer. I really appreciate that.

If the game would be too complex, maybe it would be too much niche. I understand your approach on that. But i think, there should be more challenge in construction and repairing skills. Possibly optional in difficulty settings.

Suggestions:

What about splitting the existing parts into some more? So you have more parts or the possibility to even break down the parts into some newer parts. Maybe even one more level of disassembling would do the trick. Not for all parts, but for some. Reassembling a (simple) circuit would be really cool, dont you think ;) sure, the overall frequency of faults must be slowed down if you add this.

And the idea to have a set of spare parts is also adding value to the gameplay.

The magic box could also be flanked by a "repair action" of the character and lock the screen (interruptable) as he/she is repairing.

And i felt like you should be thirsty and hungry at some point. I know, some would shout "no way!", but it would fit the whole concept of surviving in a tin can. For ressources two small additional components (which also will have their faults) would help, water generator (recycles the water used) and a carb-generator (special high carb/protein plants). And you need to sleep, so you are fit enough for all this stuff you have to do.

And i would love to have an extraction point, a final goal, you can create yourself, by assembling a distress signal equipment. If you where able to build this little thing out of learning, how the parts work (perhaps the manual provides info on that?), you raise your chance to be found with every single day you survive! Story mode ;)

Yes, i see the work amount in this project. I love the setting very much and i love the general idea behind it. Im a 2d and 3d artist. So if you want some help, maybe just for credits, let me know :)