Buff All Other Fleeces Besides Gold

[Dragon_sissiy]

Apparently this needs its own thread because the devs keep focusing on gold. Full disclosure, I was against the original nerf, but thought it was acceptable. The cap on gold was perfectly fine, and even this current iteration is ok as well, but it should still cap somewhere.
The main issue I feel like isn't being talked enough about by both the people who REEE about the nerf and the people who REEE about it being too good, is that the other fleeces NEED to be looked at and redone. The biggest offender IMO is the purple fleece. It is IMO complete garbage, and the risk for the reward is not balanced whatsoever. It feels more like a high stakes fleece for just the sake of it and doesn't really add anything interesting beyond "if I die I lose everything." If you already have a diseased heart and don't get hit, this does nothing except add that large risk. You can keep that as the risk since that is good, but add something in addition on the reward portion to make it more enticing.
The tarot card fleece is extremely boring. You get on average at least 4 cards per run anyway with the chances of getting more, so what is the point of this other than getting 4 off the bat? I feel like something else could be added here. Maybe exclusive tarot cards that only appear on use of this fleece?
The blue fleece gives you slightly more hearts... and they're the temp ones. Ok...and? Lets spice this one up. I'm sure there are plenty suggestions people have for this, I currently don't have one atm.
Green fleece is the closest to gold in that it's technically the opposite in how it functions. You get more curse damage instead of weapon damage. You could tweak this slightly to give it increases like the gold fleece per kill. To make it not exactly the same, it could be every so many successful hits, you get a big temp boost to the next curse used. This is just an example of course, other people can elaborate more on it. Personally I think it's the only fleece in a good spot next to gold. (I'm sure other people have better suggestions. But this is of course the devs job too.)

Either way, I wanted to make this so we can collect ideas for the other fleeces and bring this to the forefront. I still love this game to death and just think everyone's attention is on the wrong thing. Thank you so much for this very fun, cute little game! I already have too many hours on it lol.

[Dragon_sissiy]

Saw this in another thread and wanted to add it here since I like their suggestions more than my own:

From steam user OG:
"And just so I'm not a complete Negative Nancy, here's how I'd change the other Fleeces to introduce some interesting gameplay choices and bring them on par with Golden Fleece:

* Fleece of the Fates. *Choose* 4 standard Tarots. Tarots no longer drop. The Tarot reader will now offer upgrades to your existing Tarots instead. Now you can customise your run how you want and experiment with different builds.

* Fleece of Fragile Fortitude. 2x your Hearts and convert them to Red Hearts, but NO Heart drops of any kind. Now you can run Vampiric and Healing builds.

* Fleece of the Glass Cannon. Keep it the same, but now you can hold two Curses (hold LMB to swap). Slight buff, more variety.

* Fleece of the Diseased Heart. Replace all your Hearts with Diseased Hearts and replaces all Heart drops with Diseased Hearts. Keep the 100% resource loss on death.

* Golden Fleece. Revert it back to what it was, but you can no longer gain DMG % from enemies that were spawned by others.

and I have a suggestion for one...

* Fleece of the Blacksmith. This would be the opposite of Glass Cannon. Replaces all Curses with Weapons. At the start of each floor, forge two Weapons (all five would be offered, their effects randomised). You can now hold two Weapons, LMB and RMB to control them. This would allow you to choose weapons that synergise well with the Tarots you gained throughout the run at the expense of your Curses.

This would buff all of the Fleeces, give a unique playstyle to all of them, and make them viable for more (hopefully greater challenging) content in the future."

[Sasha Mason]

The devs keep focusing on gold because it was the single most powerful item in the game and doesn't even compare to any of the other Fleeces, so putting a quick cap on it so that it isn't insanely strong (as none of the Fleeces really are supposed to be it seems) was a good choice. If it were like that right from the start, no one would've complained.

But then, you get a lot of threads all complaining exclusively about the golden fleece, how it hurts replayability, how balancing in a singleplayer game doesn't matter ect, so while they mostly still seem to focus on bug fixing, they just reverted the change pretty much, just so that more people complain.

No, I feel like the Community is absolutely obsessed with talking about it. The devs just focus on fixing bugs and look into whatever feedback the community gives, but the community is too fixatad on just that one item.

[TamanduaGirl]

Originally posted by Dragon_sissiy:

* Fleece of the Fates. *Choose* 4 standard Tarots. Tarots no longer drop. The Tarot reader will now offer upgrades to your existing Tarots instead. Now you can customise your run how you want and experiment with different builds.

I really like the white fleece myself but I'm not a dodging god so it's nice to have some buffs from the start. Your idea is good, upgrade at a cost or my idea would be you can still get a card from him but it would also be random and come at a cost to keep their original intention of the fleeces all having a downside to be more of a unique challenge than a strait buff. Heck the cost could even be faith if you actually get to choose a card/upgrade.

[Dragon_sissiy]

Originally posted by TamanduaGirl:

Originally posted by Dragon_sissiy:

* Fleece of the Fates. *Choose* 4 standard Tarots. Tarots no longer drop. The Tarot reader will now offer upgrades to your existing Tarots instead. Now you can customise your run how you want and experiment with different builds.

I really like the white fleece myself but I'm not a dodging god so it's nice to have some buffs from the start. Your idea is good, upgrade at a cost or my idea would be you can still get a card from him but it would also be random and come at a cost to keep their original intention of the fleeces all having a downside to be more of a unique challenge than a strait buff. Heck the cost could even be faith if you actually get to choose a card/upgrade.

Yeah choosing I feel would really help it out. That way people can experiment more with builds in a more controlled setting but still have to deal with the downsides.

[OG]

I agree and the issue is with the Fleeces that grant Hearts is that they are easily replaced by late-game sermons.

And I've said this before: Golden Fleece is game-breaking IF you're good enough to not get hit. It speeds up the game if you're good enough to rack up the bonus damage. If you are never taking damage, how are you going to die with extra hearts and without double damage?

Golden Fleece is the only way I felt I *might* die on a run. Get hit once before the boss, you lose all your benefits, and now you're just playing with half your HP.

I do feel like the other Fleeces need some draw to change how you play and make you want to experiment with them as opposed to just give hearts.

Glass Cannon is fine, but it's quite reliant on Tarots that you don't have much control over. It's still fun to mess with though and if you get the right run it can be pretty powerful.

The other three always feel underwhelming to me. Thanks for sharing my suggestions.

[Dead Tired Poss]

The other fleeces really just don't need such big drawbacks for no reason. Why limit diseased hearts on Diseased Heart? Why only 1.5x blue health when you're sacrificing all healing in a run? 4 Tarot cards is about as much as you'll get in a single run that doesn't have the level unlocked that you can continue the dungeon 2 more times, why not 4 per floor?

It's like they didn't actually expect anyone to be good at videos game and make good use of the golden fleece that they genuinely thought the double damage drawback was in line with the other drawbacks of the other 4 fleeces only to realize that the bonuses from the other fleeces are the problem, they're just not good enough for what you're trading.

[𝕁𝕒𝕔𝕜𝕝𝕖]

i just use the white fleece because i thought it looked cool and its fun to start a run on random cards idk, yall need to focus on whats fun and not meta its not a online game lol

[ZeppMan217]

Originally posted by Midnight Ushiro シ:

i just use the white fleece because i thought it looked cool and its fun to start a run on random cards idk, yall need to focus on whats fun and not meta its not a online game lol

I fail to see how getting 4 garbage cards is fun.

[𝕁𝕒𝕔𝕜𝕝𝕖]

Originally posted by ZeppMan217:

Originally posted by Midnight Ushiro シ:

i just use the white fleece because i thought it looked cool and its fun to start a run on random cards idk, yall need to focus on whats fun and not meta its not a online game lol

I fail to see how getting 4 garbage cards is fun.

black coffee drinker i see

[ZeppMan217]

Originally posted by Midnight Ushiro シ:

Originally posted by ZeppMan217:

I fail to see how getting 4 garbage cards is fun.

black coffee drinker i see

Chamomile tea.

[𝕁𝕒𝕔𝕜𝕝𝕖]

Originally posted by ZeppMan217:

Originally posted by Midnight Ushiro シ:

black coffee drinker i see

Chamomile tea.

of course lol

[Sasha Mason]

Originally posted by Midnight Ushiro シ:

i just use the white fleece because i thought it looked cool and its fun to start a run on random cards idk, yall need to focus on whats fun and not meta its not a online game lol

It doesn't matter if it's online or not, people will often go with the most efficient way to do things. Whenever there is something in a game to expoit for an advantage, people will do. It's why The Witcher 3 actually has a few NPC encounters that you run into specifically when you do use those exploits. If there is an easier way to do something, people will do it. If there is a harder and an easier way, why would you go with the more difficult path? It's just how people are

[𝕁𝕒𝕔𝕜𝕝𝕖]

Originally posted by Sasha Mason:

Originally posted by Midnight Ushiro シ:

i just use the white fleece because i thought it looked cool and its fun to start a run on random cards idk, yall need to focus on whats fun and not meta its not a online game lol

It doesn't matter if it's online or not, people will often go with the most efficient way to do things. Whenever there is something in a game to expoit for an advantage, people will do. It's why The Witcher 3 actually has a few NPC encounters that you run into specifically when you do use those exploits. If there is an easier way to do something, people will do it. If there is a harder and an easier way, why would you go with the more difficult path? It's just how people are

what about witcher 3? that game has a lot of npc encounters though. and well i dont, i dont look for the best tactical way or by the book numbers when i play a single player game, just doesnt make sense to me like who am i trying to look good for, every enemy in the game has a typical pattern, you could beat the game with a level 1 dagger

[Sasha Mason]

What I mean is that there are certain exploits that allow you to quickly grind gold and the developers took notice of that and added an NPC dialogue encounter of you being asked about any unusual ways that you made gold if you used that specific exploit.

The point I'm making here is, even in a full on singleplayer game, people will often play for the biggest advantage. Just in singleplayer, it's their own experience and it only ever affects them, but that too can be bad if you feel like there's a really easy thing to exploit and it cheapens the rest of the experience. Those same types of people are a hassle to play against in multiplayer though because they'll use all sorts of weird quirks glitches and exploits to get the biggest advantage, and then it's a bother for others.

[Virgil]

Originally posted by Sasha Mason:

Originally posted by Midnight Ushiro シ:

i just use the white fleece because i thought it looked cool and its fun to start a run on random cards idk, yall need to focus on whats fun and not meta its not a online game lol

It doesn't matter if it's online or not, people will often go with the most efficient way to do things. Whenever there is something in a game to expoit for an advantage, people will do. It's why The Witcher 3 actually has a few NPC encounters that you run into specifically when you do use those exploits. If there is an easier way to do something, people will do it. If there is a harder and an easier way, why would you go with the more difficult path? It's just how people are

Then there's literally communities built around making games harder and introducing handicaps for ourselves to keep the game interesting. Please don't think that most people try to take the path of least resistance. A sizable portion? Sure.

If they want to ruin the game for themselves, why not let them?

EDIT: This only applies to single player. In multiplayer, cheating should get someone permabanned in nine different ways.