Nerf Golden fleece again!

[AmazingMrSheep]

Golden Fleece changes were a mistake! It's overpowered and needed the previous nerf. At least make it so you can't get the golden fleece until after you beat the final boss. The community doesn't know what's good for it. You shouldn't always listen to people, especially when they are making bad decisions that make for an unhealthy game.

EDIT: Just make it an end game item so it doesn't break the game. OR make it so you start taking more and more damage as your damage scales up so you also end up being one shot.

EDIT 2: I'll add this since some people think "just don't use it" is a good argument.
Yeah, these "Just don't use it" arguments don't work.
When it's in the game and it's OP, people are gonna use it, even at their own detriment.
In Skyrim, there was an easy to do glitch that max leveled you and broke the game.
In COD, everyone uses the one OP gun.
In Binding of Isaac, they had to nerf Brimstone and several other items because people just reset their runs until they got those OP items.
In smash Brawl, everyone used metaknight because he was the best character.
In Terraria, everyone used to only use melee weapons because they were the strongest class.

It's important that the game is balanced. It's important items in the game are balanced.
Just make it an end game item so it doesn't break the game.
Knowing something is in the game that would make me stronger but I'm just not using it ruins the fun.

EDIT 3: A lot of people think "You're just trying to control the way I play" is somehow a valid argument so I'll add this.
By telling me I can't ask for a nerf, you're trying to control the way I play the game. So if you think people shouldn't listen to me because I'm just trying to control the way others play the game, then they also shouldn't listen to you for the same reason which makes the argument invalid.
Why are you trying to dictate the way I play the game? Why can't I have the golden fleece that caps at 200%? See how the argument works on both sides?
Hopefully this clears up some of the really bad comments left here. It's a little hard to explain in text format but that argument is a complete non-argument. I didn't know there were such thoughtless arguments.

[Mindset]

Solution: buff the other fleeces
*mindblown.jpg*

[coxgobbler]

dont use if if you dont like it. IT does NOT need to be balanced. just because it is the optimal
fleece if you are a dodge master doesnt mean it needs a nerf. out of the player base only a small few will be able to dodge forever. those that can AND want to can use it. those who cant wont use it. this is not a competition or pvp game its dont have to be balanced. you use what you like and how you like to play thats it.

[TemmieNeko]

Originally posted by AmazingMrSheep:

. The community doesn't know what's good for it. You shouldn't always listen to people, especially when they are making bad decisions that make for an unhealthy game.

you dont say

[springfallendeer]

I loved the golden fleece pre-nerf, hated it post-nerf, and am content with the compromise in the middle where the cap is gone but you increase damage slower.

Beyond that, claiming its detrimental if its in the game is kinda stupid. There are mods out that give you the ability to kill all mobs in a single hit, mass multiply your items, guarantee full health, and give you unlimited curse use. Probably more than that. I'd argue that that's more detrimental than a fleece that takes at least some effort to unlock and make viable in a dungeon.

Its one type of fleece that you don't need to use. I personally don't like any of the other fleeces at all because the feel dull to me. But considering how little replayability there currently is for the game, there's at least a fun personal challenge of "How high can I get my damage?". My favorite is to use the dagger, because its the weakest, and ergo takes longer to feel like I've done anything significant.

[Schorsch Wadschinken]

Items like these are always very hard to balance properly because you have to account for people who are not that skilled as well as masters of dodging at the same time

However, I feel that people who are great at dodging would be able to finish the game just as easily. So an item like this just rewards them with faster resource gathering and progression, saving time more than anything. Not a big deal in my opinion.

People who are good dodgers kinda have a disappointing time with tarot cards because the game loves to just spam HP at you which is overkill when you rarely get hit, so the fleece feels like a nice counter to that, while people who get hit a lot are better off with health-boosting fleeces

The only thing that truly "breaks" the game is the invincibility power. That coupled with the fleece is already insane, but when you draw a card that boosts fervor it's all over. Soon as that happens you can just press go invincible in every new room and immediately kill everything, ending up with close to 1000% extra damage at the end of a full run

[Cursed Hawkins]

Originally posted by Spin for Boop <3:

I loved the golden fleece pre-nerf, hated it post-nerf, and am content with the compromise in the middle where the cap is gone but you increase damage slower.

I'm actually fine with the middle ground too, I was for the cap when it was 10% for just one kill, made the mechanic for the coat be stupid broken more than the devs likely intended to be, if it was going to remain with the 10% per kill it needed a cap, hate to tell you that but it did. With the gain cut in half the cap would be too much as the coat now feels more capable to synergies with the tarot cards such as the crits and the ranged attack for your melee weapon (which synergies already as that attack will also trigger the crits).

[BigMcLargeHuge]

tbh i suck at the game and keep getting hit every 2-3 rooms so having my damage reset and loose double hp is balanced for me.

i have played the game twice and have died more time with the gold fleece then just with stock, i think casual players its already balanced l33T gamers who never get hit obviously take full advantage of it.

i think its fine.

[Dead Tired Poss]

People really out here mad that there are people who can effectively use the golden fleece and enjoy it. I too can hit upwards of 500%+ and sometimes choose to go with glass cannon because I like a curse spammy build even if the damage is far lesser compared to golden fleece. How hard is it to just not use it if it upsets you?

The problem isn't golden fleece is too good, its that the other fleeces aren't good enough to hold a candle to it. people would rather admit golden fleece's potential is far higher than admit the other fleeces desperately need buffs more and would rather ruin the minmaxing in a single player game.

[Maffis]

I will never understand why people call for things like this in a single-player game.

If a game has a mechanic that can be abused, people who want to cheese the game will abuse it, and it will be very clear that they did when others see it. Resto glitch in Skyrim is a prime example of this. You could choose to play the game as intended, or you could abuse the system to make yourself god-mode. People abusing a mechanic on their own in a single player game literally does no harm to you. It does not affect your play-through at all.

Golden fleece is extremely good if you're able to dodge every attack that's thrown at you. If you feel like using that fleece, and you execute it well, you will be given a huge damage increase. If you don't want to execute it well and be granted a damage increase, you can choose a different fleece. Hell, you could even intentionally take damage if you simply don't want the huge buff. It's quite simple, actually.

Play the game to best suit your play-style, man. If you don't want to take advantage of something that makes you powerful, don't use it. Use something else. Hell, use the regular fleece. Don't tell the devs to ruin something others enjoy just because you don't like it. I get it if you're playing a multiplayer game with a competitive aspect (these games NEED to be balanced), but a single-player game that doesn't even have competition has no need for changes like this.

[AmazingMrSheep]

Originally posted by Maffis:

I will never understand why people call for things like this in a single-player game.

If a game has a mechanic that can be abused, people who want to cheese the game will abuse it, and it will be very clear that they did when others see it. Resto glitch in Skyrim is a prime example of this. You could choose to play the game as intended, or you could abuse the system to make yourself god-mode. People abusing a mechanic on their own in a single player game literally does no harm to you. It does not affect your play-through at all.

Golden fleece is extremely good if you're able to dodge every attack that's thrown at you. If you feel like using that fleece, and you execute it well, you will be given a huge damage increase. If you don't want to execute it well and be granted a damage increase, you can choose a different fleece. Hell, you could even intentionally take damage if you simply don't want the huge buff. It's quite simple, actually.

Play the game to best suit your play-style, man. If you don't want to take advantage of something that makes you powerful, don't use it. Use something else. Hell, use the regular fleece. Don't tell the devs to ruin something others enjoy just because you don't like it. I get it if you're playing a multiplayer game with a competitive aspect (these games NEED to be balanced), but a single-player game that doesn't even have competition has no need for changes like this.

Your argument has already been addressed. Please check original post EDIT 2.

[Bird O' Omens.]

Originally posted by AmazingMrSheep:

Golden Fleece changes were a mistake! It's overpowered and needed the previous nerf. At least make it so you can't get the golden fleece until after you beat the final boss. The community doesn't know what's good for it. You shouldn't always listen to people, especially when they are making bad decisions that make for an unhealthy game.

EDIT: Just make it an end game item so it doesn't break the game. OR make it so you start taking more and more damage as your damage scales up so you also end up being one shot.

EDIT 2: I'll add this since some people think "just don't use it" is a good argument.
Yeah, these "Just don't use it" arguments don't work.
When it's in the game and it's OP, people are gonna use it, even at their own detriment.
In Skyrim, there was an easy to do glitch that max leveled you and broke the game.
In COD, everyone uses the one OP gun.
In Binding of Isaac, they had to nerf Brimstone and several other items because people just reset their runs until they got those OP items.
In smash Brawl, everyone used metaknight because he was the best character.
In Terraria, everyone used to only use melee weapons because they were the strongest class.

It's important that the game is balanced. It's important items in the game are balanced.
Just make it an end game item so it doesn't break the game.
Knowing something is in the game that would make me stronger but I'm just not using it ruins the fun.

No ones forcing you to use it, just wear something different and stop trying to ruin it for others.

You're as bad as the Soulsbourne pvpers.

[Lokinne]

1) It's optional.
2) Is it really relevant the balance aspect of it if it doesn't hinder the game experience or causes problems for other players? Being a single player experience I don't think it's bad, it's just another option. I don't like the fleece that gives you 4 predetermined tarot cards but I just don't use it, idk.

[TakeMyLunch]

How is it broken?
Increased damage from kills but resets on hit *and* you take double damage.
If you're really good enough to not get hit then all this does is speed up things.
If you get hit a lot it's useless.
I genuinely don't see a problem with it.

[Donut Steel]

All problems will be fixed with NG+

Item is OP? Good, you'll need it to be when you have looped through enough NG+.

[AmazingMrSheep]

Originally posted by Disco Gore:

1) It's optional.
2) Is it really relevant the balance aspect of it if it doesn't hinder the game experience or causes problems for other players? Being a single player experience I don't think it's bad, it's just another option. I don't like the fleece that gives you 4 predetermined tarot cards but I just don't use it, idk.

Of course it's relevant to balance it. Not having a balanced game hinders the game experience.