Occupy Mars: Prologue

Occupy Mars: Prologue

Please, set battery capacity as capacity, not power !
The game is promising to be something very pleasant, it promises a lot of possibilities, congratulations to developers !
But, how battery is implemented is quite disappointing !

The game deals with capacity like power, when you put batteries in series, the result is not what we could expect since it's not how batteries work in real world !

When batteries are in series, the last one is the first to be filled because each battery take from the previous all the energy it can until it is full, and the first one is the first to be emptied because it will send its energy to the next one while it contains some energy, preventing the next one to be empty.

All the power we can deliver at the input of the first battery is immediatly accessible at the output of the last battery even if it's empty (if the maximum output setting is higher than input power).

In the game, the power is equal to capacity, if first battery has 15kWh, it's output is only 15kW even if the limit is set to 180kW and whatever is the input. So last battery won't give any power until some energy have been sent to the second one, the third... and so on. And even with 250kW at input, you could not be able to supply 10kW until the last battery has stocked 10kWh...
This is awful !!!

Please, deal with energy = capacity and power = energy / time !

Another problem is to set % prior to kW, if I set 20% of 100kW to a device and let 80% unattributed (80kW) , when input power go down to 50kW, my device only receive 20% of 50kW, so 10kW, while 40kW are not used, and my device will not work like it should even if there are plenty of power accessible...

Real physics of electricity is not something hard to implement, please do it correctly !
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Batteries are in parallel, not series. Both positive and negative go to each battery in turn, if they were series, negative would go to the first and positive to the last. With series, the output voltage is cumulative, so 2x12 volt batteries would give 24 volts. With parallel, the voltage remains the same but the amperage is cumulative.

I actual fact, placing batteries in parallel like this, would result in all batteries charging at an equal rate. Electricity does not flow like water to the bottom, it retains a constant level.
Well, we are talking about "battery pack" in the game, which is not really a battery but UPS (Uninterruptible Power Supply) with a battery inside (how many cells, and how they're connected, inside the UPS is irrelevant).

In the game, you can connect them in series (each UPS supply the next one), or in parallel on a transformer, but that's not the problem. In the end, the overall capacity is the addition of each UPS capacity.

What I said upper is an example to show what's wrong.

In real-world, power != energy, power = energy / time, or energy = power * time.

In the game, battery pack's power = battery pack's energy! The maximum power a battery pack can deliver is equal to the amount of energy stored inside the battery, it's expressed in kWh instead of kW! This is nonsense!

Ok, it's a game, nobody is living on Mars, a game shall not be exactly similar to reality, but power management is almost the most important principle of this game, how energy couldn't be correctly modeled?

The power a battery (or UPS) can deliver has nothing to do with the amount of energy stored inside the battery (of course, it should have some energy stored), but how long a battery can deliver power.

Naposledy upravil uncle_buzz; 2. lis. 2020 v 5.39
uncle_buzz původně napsal:
In the game, battery pack's power = battery pack's energy! The maximum power a battery pack can deliver is equal to the amount of energy stored inside the battery, it's expressed in kWh instead of kW! This is nonsense!
On a battery, it is the power that it is either currently storing or the max it can store as it is a storage device and not a continuous supply of power.

kWh is a measure of flow rate, kW is a measure of storage capacity.

A continuous supply flow can meet a given demand per hour before it starts blowing fuses because you are drawing more than it can deliver, hence kWh, But over several hours, it can meet a demand far greater than that.

A battery on the other hand has a maximum amount of power it can store and no more. It also means you can draw twice the amount of power, since it isn't a limit on the speed you can drain it, that is controlled by the cables and the fuse box. Therefore, the solar cells would be measured in kWh as it is the maximum amount they can deliver per hour, but the battery is measured in kW.

Your mains pressure water tap can deliver 500 litres a minute (for example). A tank can hold 1000 litres, so it takes 4 minutes to fill it but you can then drain that tank in 30 seconds if you fix a drain tap and bigger pipes that can handle 2000 litres per minute.
** Note that I'm using round figures as an example and not actual mains pressure figures before you start getting technical.

Although, in reality, the chances of getting a battery pack that can deliver more than a few Watts per hour for a mains system is unlikely. For 180 kW, you would probably have something several times the size of the battery packs seen here using current tech. My car battery for example is 70Amps and that's only 12 volts, at 240 volts, that's just 3.5Amps of power (840 Watts).

For just 1kW, it would be more than 1.19 of those batteries. Then multiply that by 180 and you have over 214 of those batteries to provide 180kW at 240 Volts.
Naposledy upravil Tryst49; 7. lis. 2020 v 14.01
Tryst49, I see what Uncle_Buzz is saying. The electricity terminology is very important, and there might be some confusion between the way the game developers' language describes these properties, and the way it is in English.

A "battery" (usually a misnomer in English for what we should call a chemical cell) does not store power. It stores potential electrical energy. Electrical power (expressed in watts) is the time rate of electrical energy (expressed in joules). So you guys are both right, but the terminology needs to be fixed in the game. This might be something that will need to be revised or edited in the English localization.

Another related thing I noticed in the tutorial where you have to supply the needed electricity to the lamps, the monitors say something like "needed" and "current". Of course, the word "current" is a specific electrical property, and using it next to a number with kWh next to it becomes confusing. Maybe simply change the word to "supplied".
I didn't read your whole comment before I posted, but we should be clear that a typical battery is in fact limited by how quickly you can discharge (or charge) it. There is an internal resistance to the cells, and the chemical reactions are not instantaneous, and fast discharging or charging of storage devices will overheat them, just as a conductor or a current-limiting device like a fuse, breaker, thermal overload, etc.

How a battery is specified really depends on its application. Car batteries are marked by volts and cold-cranking amps. Household batteries are simply specified by volts. Laptop / cell phone batteries are in amp-hours.

Another thing, kilowatt-hour is power * time, so it is the same dimensionally as joules. Conversely, joules / time would be the same units as kilowatt-hour, so as long as the game sticks to common units, it should avoid confusion.

I'm glad you guys are discussing this stuff, since I was personally thinking the same things while playing the game -- the Battery device and the Transformer device in the game are both poorly picked names in English. Maybe it should be something like Supercapacitor instead of Battery, and Power Supply instead of Transformer.
Tryst49 původně napsal:
kWh is a measure of flow rate, kW is a measure of storage capacity.

This statement is wrong, it's the opposite !

power is the "flow" of energy, so an amount of energy in a given time : energy / time
power is expressed in W and derivatives like kW

So, power = energy / time <=> energy = power * time. It means if you consume 1kW during 1 hour, you have consume a total amount of 1kWh energy.

I think my english is not good enough to express what I mean, because it's very simple, there's no possible contradiction, there's no possible debate...

On an UPS, all the input power (in kW) is available at the output (still in kW) unless you limit the output power. That's a fact. And the figures displayed on the screen of a battery pack in the game are not compliant with this statement (that's the foudment of my complaint)

But if you don't use all the available power at the output, the battery pack has the ability to store the energy (in kWh) given by the available power (in kW) (difference between input and output power (still in kW)). The amount of energy stored (in kWh) is equal to the available power * time.

In the game, the screen of a battery pack shows that the output power is limited to the energy stored... That's not possible because energy (kWh) is not power (kW).

Things can be more complexe if you deal with maximum input power the battery pack can absorb and the maximum power it can deliver, but don't think about this before simplest things are correct.

An example :
you have 2 medium solar pannel producing 2*30kW = 60kW of power
they both suply a transformer, which supply a battery pack with a capacity of 180kWh.
the battery pack is suppling a Dome which consumes 20kW.

So the battery pack is supplied with 60kW, it supplies the dome with 20kW, there is still 40kW available which are sent to the storage element and store energy in kWh. Each hour the battery gains 40kW * 1h = 40kWh. The empty battery needs 180kWh / 40kW = 4.5h to be full in this condition.

When the battey is full, 20kW are still taken at the input to supply the dome, the battery stay full. When input power is reduce to less than 20kW, the battery pack use the stored energy to supply the output. If input power is 0kW (no sun) the battery has to deliver 20kW, so the energy stored in the battery will decrease by 20kWh each hour (20kW * 1h) so can supply the dome during 9h.

If you add a battery pack between the transformer and the battery pack, mechanisms are the sames. Until the last battery is full, it will take all the power it can, so 60kW in our example.It will supply the dome with 20kW, and store 40kWh each hour. When the last battery is full, it will take only 20kW from its input to supply the 20kW to the dome. At this moment, the first battery whch is supplied with 60kW don't have to still supply 60kW but only 20kW, it can store energy (40kWh each hour) from this moment.

When there's no sun, the last battery is supplying the dome with 20kW, but the first battery is not empty, so it supplies the last battery with 20kW until it's empty, the last battery stay full. The last battery use it's own energy when the input power is less than the output, when the first battery is empty.

It's how real things works, but not in the game.

In the game, when a battery pack has still 30kWh stored, it can supply 30kW or less, but when energy will decrease to 10 kWh, the output power is limited to 10kW. So if the battery has still 10kWh, it should be able to supply the dome with 20kW during half an hour (10kWh / 20kW = 0.5h), but not in the game, it's an error.

Sorry if you don't understand all this things, maybe because my english is not good enough, but I don't have to convince you, my complaint is for developper because even on Mars, electricity follow the same rules as on earth, and that's not what they imlplemented in the game, it's quite annoying for a game where energy management is the foundation of everythinig.
Naposledy upravil uncle_buzz; 8. lis. 2020 v 8.48
The Battery pack in the game are the UPS Battery Backup you use to supply your computer. Did you ever saw that you couldn't be able to power your computer when the battery backup is empty but connected to wall supply ? Of course you can, but not in the game...
After some tests, it seems this is only a bug in display, even if battery pack display the same figures on capacity and on output power. If the dome is consuming 44.75kW from a battery supplied with 30kW, and with an inital capacity of 20kWh, even if the different displays like the screen on the battery pack or the screen inside the dome show an input power of 20kW / 44.75kW needed, everything is working well, and the battery capacity is decreasing slowly to 0kWh while the dome is consumming 14.75kW more than the input of the battery.
So it seems that everything is working as it should, apart from the display who should be corrected.
Naposledy upravil uncle_buzz; 8. lis. 2020 v 9.59
Yeah, I see what you mean. There is a distinction between energy and power, of course you're right.

If the "battery pack" has stored 180kWh of ENERGY, it can provide power at constant 180kW for one hour, or 10kW for 18 hours, or 18kW for 10 hours, etc.

Non-technical people can have a difficult time with units, since most people don't carry a conversion chart in their pocket for reference (like, how many joules are in a kilowatt-hour). So that makes sense why the game uses kWh and kW for energy and power, instead of kW and kJ. My guess is that it's intended to be for simplifying estimating power use in your head when you look on the displays in the game.
I don't have any problem with the units (they were inverted before version 0.42 but are good now), but there is a bug with the value of output power displayed by the screen of battery packs and everywhere this display is replicated. The value displayed is a copy of the energy stored in the battery. It's a bug, but unlike what I supposed, only the display is concerned, how power and energy works in the game seems correct.
i can just say this connecting all batteries parrel is annoying, if you build big pack at once you need very long wait until energy goes from last battery, second problem we dont have splitters , building few transformers just to split energy is inefective and waste of resources on mars.
Halcyforn původně napsal:
i can just say this connecting all batteries parrel is annoying, if you build big pack at once you need very long wait until energy goes from last battery, second problem we dont have splitters , building few transformers just to split energy is inefective and waste of resources on mars.
Something to split the cables to multiple outputs would be nice.
Based on title alone what's you saying makes no sense.

you don't limit a battery power, you control how much its allowed to output, why would you want to limit how much power it can hold when they enough excess to charge it? That would defeat the whole point of a battery in first place

looking deeper into the text however your 'problem' is gone the moment the battery has enough power built up.

.

What your actually asking for is not to change the limiter to capacity, what your asking for is IF enough power going into battery then it prioritises output first and only excess goes to charge, rather than requiring it to reach certain charges before it turns on.
Black Raven původně napsal:
What your actually asking for is not to change the limiter to capacity, what your asking for is IF enough power going into battery then it prioritises output first and only excess goes to charge, rather than requiring it to reach certain charges before it turns on.
But every battery powered device I know has to have a certain level of charge before it will start operating. Some mobile phones have to have 5% before they will even turn on if you allowed the battery to run out completely. This is a safety measure to prevent data loss during startup but there are other reasons for it too.
A motor can potentially burn out if it spins up and stops too often in quick succession. If a battery has enough to give it that powerful first boost to get it going, but not enough remaining to keep it running, you get the constant spin up/down routine. A motor requires a considerable amount of power initially to overcome the inertia of the stator, plus anything else it's driving and then, only a trickle to keep it running.

Similarly a neon light requires up to twice as much power to start than it does to run for an hour and constantly triggering the starter can burn it out quickly. Incidentally, that's why neon lights often cost less to run constantly than they do to keep turning them on only when you need them.

So batteries need a large enough initial charge to ensure that burnout doesn't happen and a limiter is usually added to ensure the battery has a large enough charge before the device it powers can be fired up and kept running. When it's a matter of life and death, any safety precaution to prevent burnout of essential components is crucial to survival, the last thing you want is the scrubber motor burning out.

I know it's only a game, but we should really adhere to some level of realism for the game scenario to be plausible. That's why I have always questioned the use of Oxygen alone in such games, you would be dead in around 24 hours if you breathed pure Oxygen at a pressure of 0.5 bar or more. Nitrogen should really be added to ensure this doesn't happen.
https://factslegend.org/breathing-in-pure-oxygen-is-it-harmful/
uncle_buzz původně napsal:
Another problem is to set % prior to kW, if I set 20% of 100kW to a device and let 80% unattributed (80kW) , when input power go down to 50kW, my device only receive 20% of 50kW, so 10kW, while 40kW are not used, and my device will not work like it should even if there are plenty of power accessible...

This really should be addressed for the full version, I found it quite annoying.
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