Legacy Paths and Victory Conditions - lacking depth

[rjkelly2015]

My major concern is replayability. I feel the Legacy paths are driving the behaviour of the player and restricting it too much. Call me naive but I would like a game that allows me to win say a culture victory or science victory in more ways than one specified route I must adher too. ( a sandbox environment if you will is what im looking for).

At the very least in the modern age i would like to maybe pick 4 legacy paths from a list of maybe 10 options to aim for to win. This would freshen the game up and allow the leader/civ combo you select to really lean into a different style of gameplay. (I would like these options in the other ages also)

An example of the frustration i can see happening is to win a culture victory currently I MUST dig up artifacts. Surely I should be able to win a culture victory WITHOUT digging up artifacts like in Civ 6 when i could go hard on National Parks, Trade Routes, Great works, Relics, Seaside resorts, ski resorts, Rock Bands, Wonders. Any combo of these would do. You see what im driving at, there needs to be way more depth in legacy paths and more strategic options to mix up the gameplay.

The same thought process should apply to the other victory types too. Science for example is way too simplistic and needs to be expanded on to include biological advances aswell and some mechanics around that. Economic - im sure there would be heaps of options you could think of in the late game to select from.

Other aspects I think would really help with replayability would be:
1. More Victory types - 4 is far too small to play. It would be good to have at least 8 victory types to choose from and you select which 4 you want in your particular game.
2. Variation on Victory conditions projects - again a picklist of what you want to finish the game doing would be good just for the variety it offers so it doesnt feel samey all the time.

Thoughts? do you think the legacy paths and victory conditions sound ok or do you think they lack depth and will make the game too rigid/inflexible to the detriment of replayability?

[AHTF´184]

Well, you make an example in your post but to be honest i dont really see a difference in comparison to earlier civ games.

Science victory is usually only one play path, cultural you list alot but to be honest i cant say the play style for cultural victory was very different between difference rounds in earlier civs.

Edit: After thinking about it abit more i hope the new system actually adds more replayability. Before in civ you often decide from the start exactly how the game was supposed to play out, with the new systems you actually maybe have to change your plan and also have the option to do it, which was very doubtful in earlier civ games.

[plaguepenguin]

Originally posted by rjkelly2015:

An example of the frustration i can see happening is to win a culture victory currently I MUST dig up artifacts. Surely I should be able to win a culture victory WITHOUT digging up artifacts like in Civ 6 when i could go hard on National Parks, Trade Routes, Great works, Relics, Seaside resorts, ski resorts, Rock Bands, Wonders. Any combo of these would do. You see what im driving at, there needs to be way more depth in legacy paths and more strategic options to mix up the gameplay.

All these features you cite aren't what I would consider strategic options towards winning a culture victory in 6. This is just the list of end-game mechanics you could deploy to claim a victory you had actually won much earlier, when you clawed your way to the top in terms of the tech and civics trees, then snowballed. And you did the climbing and the snowballing only one way, by grabbing more land than the competition, to give you more districts that produced all the yields you needed to snowball. You got to deploy as many of these specific features of a culture victory as you wanted, because you unlocked all of them before your competitors.

You won a culture victory in 6 the exact same way you won science or domination, by getting up the tech and civics trees faster than the competition, which let you deploy features of the game that finalized your inevitable victory. I never made any decision geared specifically to any one of the the victory types until the mid-game, or even late mid-game. All the replayability value in 6 that I found, I found in the struggle to get to the top. It was admittedly nice to play out the mechanics of the culture victory, and the religious victory,a few times. Both had some nice chrome built into their end-game mechanics. But chrome, however nice, is something I only find enjoyable ion a strategy game for one or two playthroughs. It's being held to hard choices that creates replay value in a strategic game, and all the effort in 6, towards a culture or either of the other two victories worth trying for, come while you're clawing your way to the top. The aim of that struggle is to arrive in the end-game in a position that makes exactly how you deploy all the tourism victory mechanics pretty much just show, without any strategic heft. You want to get to the end-game in a position from which you could no longer lose if you tried. Well, in 6, that meant clicking end-turn 50-100 times after you could no longer lose, then going through the chrome of one of the three victory types' mechanics to finally end a game that had really lost all suspense long ago.

It seems that this isn't just my take on 6 and its shortcomings. The devs have made dramatic changes designed chiefly, it seems, to keep me from clawing my way to any final peak that lets me snowball to a victory inevitable after only a 100 or so turns. Now I'm not sure exactly how to win, any of the victory types. Grabbing as much land as you can still looks good, but they've put clogs on that with the happiness mechanic, and specialists seem so powerful that tall play now looks quite competitive. Those eat up happiness as well, so who knows how you will have to balance tall and wide, peaceful expansion and conquest. Then you have to focus on planning to get carryover perks for the next age, more than just how to snowball within the current age.

As part of the changes, they have streamlined a lot of mechanics, sometimes a lot. So religion has lost almost all its nice chrome. Culture victory as well. I won't miss it, at all, as little as I will miss builders. Ironically, while the culture victory has gotten stripped of a lot of its end-game geegaws, culture seems actually more important in the game, no matter what sort of victory you're after, because there are all these new civics trees to get through, in addition to the old unitary tree. The big culture story in the Modern seems to me not at all the lame culture victory end-game, but the very nice policies you can unlock on the civics tree of whichever ideology you choose. That's where you're going to have impactful choices to make, and much of the replay value, in the Modern, in terms of culture. Let the victory mechanics be stripped down and unexciting, as long as you leave me still making important decisions in the late game, as 6 failed to do, systematically.

[Aluminum Elite Master]

My honest two cents:

I think the game is going to have a lot of problems and unfortunately probably is going to be not a great Civ game, BUT the Legacies mechanic is one of the changes I actually could see working well. Civ 6's cultural victory is horrendous... its diplomatic victory is random-ish and bad... its science victory is a click-fest in the end-game. Religion victory is okay in theory but the CPU has no idea how to push back against me spamming apostles.

So, while Civ 7 having no workers, no barbs, and forcing players to re-pick civ each era are huge red flags for me and holding me back from buying, I'd also say that Legacies and a few other changes are probably for the best. Legacies, different tile elevations, and moving multiple units via the military commander unit or w/e it's called, are positive changes. And legacies look to be a way to create more focus and less mindless end-turn spamming.

[Skeev]

Originally posted by rjkelly2015:

Legacy Paths and Victory Conditions - lacking depth

Cultural Victory in Civ 6 is probably the least understood mechanic in Civ 6 or maybe Civ in general.
I think, the most most well-developed victory condition in Civ 6 is Science. Especially after they altered it.

[rjkelly2015]

Originally posted by Skeev:

Originally posted by rjkelly2015:

Legacy Paths and Victory Conditions - lacking depth

Cultural Victory in Civ 6 is probably the least understood mechanic in Civ 6 or maybe Civ in general.
I think, the most most well-developed victory condition in Civ 6 is Science. Especially after they altered it.

I totally get what your saying re the culture victory in Civ 6 it was very hard to understand. In my opinion a middle ground between what the devs have done in Civ VII and Civ 6 for culture victory would be the sweet spot. This would make it clear how to win a culture victory but provide alternative legacy paths either from the gameplay preceding the modern age or a selection of choices you can pick from (this might even influence the civ choice in the modern age). Personally 8 out 10 of my Civ 6 games were me targeting a culture victory. I rarely play science, domination, Religious or Diplomatic as there isnt enough variety in terms of how you win them victories for me and the scope wasnt wide enough for me to try different strategies as its was too prescribed (almost too specific). Thats my major gripe, the game telling me what to do and there is no other way to win/no flexibility in approach.

The snowballing thing i get but the age transitions temper that to some degree but there is no getting away from the fact once you reach the modern age you will need to have one main victory in mind with maybe a backup plan of another. I am just fearful of having to do the same thing over and over again no matter what civ/leader combo you are or what you have done in prior ages if you are targeting the same victory type. The late game will be about making the same decisions not important distinctive decisions. Variety is the spice of life and thats what would make Civ VII amazing and more interesting.

I love most of the new mechanics especially the age transitions from what i have seen but its just the UI, AI and Legacy paths/Victory conditions/lack of Victory types that disappoint me. Im hoping the modding community can come to the rescue 😊

[Runestedt]

I would also like an option to turn off all and some victory paths.

[AHTF´184]

Originally posted by rjkelly2015:

Originally posted by Skeev:

Cultural Victory in Civ 6 is probably the least understood mechanic in Civ 6 or maybe Civ in general.
I think, the most most well-developed victory condition in Civ 6 is Science. Especially after they altered it.

I totally get what your saying re the culture victory in Civ 6 it was very hard to understand. In my opinion a middle ground between what the devs have done in Civ VII and Civ 6 for culture victory would be the sweet spot. This would make it clear how to win a culture victory but provide alternative legacy paths either from the gameplay preceding the modern age or a selection of choices you can pick from (this might even influence the civ choice in the modern age). Personally 8 out 10 of my Civ 6 games were me targeting a culture victory. I rarely play science, domination, Religious or Diplomatic as there isnt enough variety in terms of how you win them victories for me and the scope wasnt wide enough for me to try different strategies as its was too prescribed (almost too specific). Thats my major gripe, the game telling me what to do and there is no other way to win/no flexibility in approach.

The snowballing thing i get but the age transitions temper that to some degree but there is no getting away from the fact once you reach the modern age you will need to have one main victory in mind with maybe a backup plan of another. I am just fearful of having to do the same thing over and over again no matter what civ/leader combo you are or what you have done in prior ages if you are targeting the same victory type. The late game will be about making the same decisions not important distinctive decisions. Variety is the spice of life and thats what would make Civ VII amazing and more interesting.

I love most of the new mechanics especially the age transitions from what i have seen but its just the UI, AI and Legacy paths/Victory conditions/lack of Victory types that disappoint me. Im hoping the modding community can come to the rescue 😊

I still don’t see the real difference. You list a smoking of choices you had for cultural victory but in reality they just came down to spamming everything that have culture/tourism and sending out some rockbands. There wasnt any real choice between naturalpark and skiresort…

If civ7 world as they hope, you can at several points change your plan on how to win. This was never previous possible. This should less to a greater variety between different rounds.