Oppose Misrepresentation of Ancient Egyptians – Boycott Civilization 7

[samarcot8]

Civilization 7 inaccurately portrays Ancient Egyptians as Black Sub-Saharan Africans, disregarding the substantial genetic and archaeological evidence that links ancient Egyptians directly to the current population, particularly Egyptian Copts. This portrayal is problematic as it undermines the cultural heritage of modern Egyptians. There is no evidence to support a mass exodus that would explain such a drastic change in the population’s identity. DNA evidence confirms the continuity between ancient Egyptians and their modern descendants. Moreover, ancient Egyptians themselves depicted a clear distinction between their own people and their Nubian and Sub-Saharan African neighbors. This is not an attack on the Black community; it is about ensuring that the heritage of Egyptians is represented accurately and respectfully.

[Alpharius Nox]

s1n1573r a écrit :

universecreep a écrit :

I don't know. Is it that big of a deal? It's a game. I play it to escape the real world and have fun.

^This guy gets it

True, but it's important to at least TRY to be a little accurate, and I'm glad that pop culture is starting to catch on to the fact that the Ancient Egyptians were not looking like British dudes from Nottingham, which is how most civilization style games portray them. We should look at how they depicted themselves and what anthropology says. Which is, they were a multi-ethnic African society, that originated from Nubians in the South, and as time went on, they became more mixed with immigrants from the Levant, Persia, Greece, Rome, and Arabs.

Of course, people want to totally exclude the African origin of Egypt, mostly out of bias, and ignorance. And a desire to stick it to the "woke". But if one takes the time to actually study Egypt, and I don't mean watching one Metatron video, and listening to the disgraceful Zahi Hawass, you'll find that there is more African in Egypt than pop culture realizes. Especially when you start to dig into African culture as a whole.

[ReborN]

universecreep a écrit :

I don't know. Is it that big of a deal? It's a game. I play it to escape the real world and have fun.

And yet, lately all the real world politics and ideologies follow us into the games too. No escape. :)

[Oaks]

Warmaster Tarik a écrit :

Catalytic a écrit :

Trust me bro . . .

You didn't read them, and you didn't disprove them.
You failed. Try again.
Please don't bring up Afrocentrism, you obviously didn't read anything I wrote.
In one of the studies I posted, the woman clearly states that she does not believe the Egyptians were "negroes", but then her study goes on to show that the Egyptians were "super-negroid", which she couldn't figure out why. The same woman did another study some years later, using different methodologies, and came to the same conclusion.

I never said all Egyptians were black, in fact, I made it clear that Lower Egyptians were different from Upper Egyptians. Now, can YOU admit that the lower Egyptians were more than likely Levantine, and the Upper Egyptians were certainly African? You realize that Upper Egypt is RIGHT NEXT TO THE BLACKEST PEOPLE ON EARTH? And yet you think there was some invisible wall that kept people from intermixing and sharing culture? This honestly requires a bit more evidence than just "trust me bro".

Now, please try your best to debunk the studies I posted, and not just bring up a bunch of theories based on your own viewpoint.

Here is an except from the "Cultural entanglement" study I posted:

The distinction between an Egyptian
and a Nubian identity is something connected to
the rise of the Naqada culture
in the first half of the fourth millennium
BCE. During the previous millennium
such a distinction would have not made
sense. As previously stated, the Tarifian,
Badarian and Tasian cultures of Middle
and Upper Egypt have strong ties with the
Nubian/Nilotic pastoral tradition, as
can be inferred, for instance, by the
very similar pottery, economy and settlement
pattern and by the LATEST findings
in the deserts surrounding the Egyptian
Nile valley.

Tell me where this study is wrong to conclude that the Nubians and Egyptians shared a culture and a history, and ethnicity. Based on all the evidence that has been uncovered in the last 50 years or so.

I don't know enough about the subject to comment on it, but I will say you seem to be the only person in the thread who is actually offering souces, and multiple ones at that.

At least for me, that's more convincing than anyone's opinion and it's surprising this discussion is still going, despite (from my point of view) you having the most convincing argument.

[Many-Named]

Warmaster Tarik a écrit :

s1n1573r a écrit :

^This guy gets it

True, but it's important to at least TRY to be a little accurate, and I'm glad that pop culture is starting to catch on to the fact that the Ancient Egyptians were not looking like British dudes from Nottingham, which is how most civilization style games portray them. We should look at how they depicted themselves and what anthropology says. Which is, they were a multi-ethnic African society, that originated from Nubians in the South, and as time went on, they became more mixed with immigrants from the Levant, Persia, Greece, Rome, and Arabs.

Of course, people want to totally exclude the African origin of Egypt, mostly out of bias, and ignorance. And a desire to stick it to the "woke". But if one takes the time to actually study Egypt, and I don't mean watching one Metatron video, and listening to the disgraceful Zahi Hawass, you'll find that there is more African in Egypt than pop culture realizes. Especially when you start to dig into African culture as a whole.

I support BLM, I am a pretty pro woke person by every standard, vote progressive and all.

I do have eyes too.

[Imparfecto]

Warmaster Tarik a écrit :

Sorry guys, but Firaxis decided to go with how the Egyptians depicted themselves, rather than how mainstream media portrays them. Get over yourself.

https://egypt-museum.com/model-of-ancient-egyptian-soldiers/

Now, go ahead and tell me how these guys are actually white people with dark drown skin living on the African continent right next to Sudan. Make it make sense.

This is a random blog post, if you read the bottom section of the "About" page, it even points out that it's not the official website for any museum.

[Alpharius Nox]

Imparfecto a écrit :

Warmaster Tarik a écrit :

Sorry guys, but Firaxis decided to go with how the Egyptians depicted themselves, rather than how mainstream media portrays them. Get over yourself.

https://egypt-museum.com/model-of-ancient-egyptian-soldiers/

Now, go ahead and tell me how these guys are actually white people with dark drown skin living on the African continent right next to Sudan. Make it make sense.

This is a random blog post, if you read the bottom section of the "About" page, it even points out that it's not the official website for any museum.

Nevermind the website, the statues were in the Egyptian Museum of Cairo, I say were, because they may have been moved to the more modern Museum they opened a few years ago.

These are one of the few depictions in statue form, of the Egyptian military, from the 11th Dynasty, found in the tomb of Mesehti, who was a governor in Upper Egypt. Upper Egyptians were mostly of Nubian ancestry, hence, black Africans.

I'm still waiting on someone to debunk these images and the studies I posted based on the merits of their arguments, rather than attacking the sources of the information . . . someone at Firaxis has obviously done a lot more studying on ancient Egypt than the people in this thread, hence why the Egyptians look more like Africans than in previous titles. But look, Hatshepsut, at least she looks ethnically ambiguous right? She could be an Oromo an Eritrean, or even a Fulani, so don't whine too much.

[naughtymoi]

Same goes for other civs too. Modern era India represented by the Mughal Empire !?
I want Civ 7, not Mishmash 7.

[Brakiros]

It's also people not understanding just how old and long standing Egypt truly is. Lower Egypt were lighter skinned and much closer to the Semite skin tones of the Crescent. While Upper Egyptians were darker due to the fact they lived in what was essentially a desert with only the Nile providing the water to grow anything at all. And the Nubians further south were darker still.

Millenia of genetic mingling would have changed the appearance of an average Egyptian but they remained a decently multi-ethnic state so the design choice on the military units is based on a particular part of the national history.

[Alpharius Nox]

Brakiros a écrit :

It's also people not understanding just how old and long standing Egypt truly is. Lower Egypt were lighter skinned and much closer to the Semite skin tones of the Crescent. While Upper Egyptians were darker due to the fact they lived in what was essentially a desert with only the Nile providing the water to grow anything at all. And the Nubians further south were darker still.

Millenia of genetic mingling would have changed the appearance of an average Egyptian but they remained a decently multi-ethnic state so the design choice on the military units is based on a particular part of the national history.

Dark, Medium, Light, from Upper to Lower, even today, that is how they look.
Sadly, even the lighter skinned Lower Egyptians in Cairo seem to hate the darker skinned Upper Egyptians, they claim either that they are Nubians, or they were brought there as slaves. Pretty messed up.

https://newlinesmag.com/essays/how-egypts-aswan-dam-washed-away-nubian-heritage/

[samarcot8]

Even in your argument that Upper Egyptians were darker-skinned, you acknowledge that they were mixed with Nubians. Genetic studies have consistently shown that modern Coptic Christians share significant genetic continuity with ancient Egyptians, indicating direct ancestry. Research, such as the 2017 study on ancient Egyptian DNA from mummies published in Nature Communications, found that ancient Egyptians had a genetic profile closer to modern Middle Eastern and Mediterranean populations than to Sub-Saharan Africans.

If you observe modern Coptic Egyptians, their features align more with Middle Eastern and Semitic groups rather than Nubians, reinforcing historical and genetic evidence. There is nothing wrong in acknowledging that ancient Egypt was a diverse civilization influenced by multiple ethnic groups. However, the issue arises when the Afrocentric movement attempts to rewrite history by erasing the clear lineage between ancient Egyptians and their modern descendants.

To put this into perspective, would it be acceptable if Martin Luther King Jr. were depicted as a Chinese or Indian man? Such a depiction would disregard historical and ethnic accuracy, just as inaccurately portraying ancient Egyptians as Sub-Saharan Africans disregards well-established genetic and historical evidence.

Alpharius Nox a écrit :

Brakiros a écrit :

It's also people not understanding just how old and long standing Egypt truly is. Lower Egypt were lighter skinned and much closer to the Semite skin tones of the Crescent. While Upper Egyptians were darker due to the fact they lived in what was essentially a desert with only the Nile providing the water to grow anything at all. And the Nubians further south were darker still.

Millenia of genetic mingling would have changed the appearance of an average Egyptian but they remained a decently multi-ethnic state so the design choice on the military units is based on a particular part of the national history.

Dark, Medium, Light, from Upper to Lower, even today, that is how they look.
Sadly, even the lighter skinned Lower Egyptians in Cairo seem to hate the darker skinned Upper Egyptians, they claim either that they are Nubians, or they were brought there as slaves. Pretty messed up.

https://newlinesmag.com/essays/how-egypts-aswan-dam-washed-away-nubian-heritage/

[Alpharius Nox]

samarcot8 a écrit :

. . .

That 2017 DNA study has not been accepted by any mainstream Egyptologist, because of its flawed methodology.

1. All the Mummies were from a single site in Lower Egypt, from an area well known to be a place full of Greek/Roman/Middle Eastern migrants.

2. They were only able to get full genomes of three bodies.

3. The three mummies lived during the Greek/Roman era of Egypt, LONG after the founding 3000 years prior, and long after the last native dynasty ruled Egypt.

Three bodies from 3000 years after the foundational period of a civilization is not sufficient enough to claim that for 20,000 years, the people in Egypt have always been the same as those three bodies.

You claim "consistent research has shown", but the 2017 DNA study is the only study that showed Levantine ancestry or origins. There is no other study that connects Ancient Egyptians to the Middle East, unless you dig up some 19th Century pseudoscience, all studies; DNA, anthropology, archaeological, all point to an indigenous African origin. And I list a few of them for you here:

Encyclopedia of the Archaeology of Ancient Egypt – Kathryn A. Bard

“There is now a sufficient body of evidence from modern studies of skeletal remains to
indicate that the ancient Egyptians, especially southern Egyptians, exhibited physical
characteristics that are within the range of variation for ancient and modern indigenous
peoples of the Sahara and tropical Africa. The distribution of population characteristics
seems to follow a clinal pattern from south to north, which may be explained by natural
selection as well as gene flow between neighboring populations. In general, the
inhabitants of Upper Egypt and Nubia had the greatest biological affinity to people of the
Sahara and more southerly areas.”

Ancient Egyptian Genomes from northern Egypt: Further discussion – S. A. Keita

This study uses genome data extracted by Zahi Hawas’ team, and analyses it using STR, finding that mummies of the 18th Dynasty were anywhere from 70% - 90% Tropical Africans/Southern Africans.

Variation in ancient Egyptian stature and body proportions - Sonia R. Zakrzewski
This study of numerous mummies, showed again, that Ancient Egyptians were anthropologically tropical Africans (negroid).

Stature estimation in ancient Egyptians: a new technique based on anatomical reconstruction of stature -Michelle H Raxter

Another study showing Ancient Egyptians were closer to “American Blacks” than they were to “American Whites”, but that the Egyptians were, again, more negroid than American Blacks.

The physical proportions and living stature of New Kingdom pharaohs - G. Robins

One of the first studies of Ancient Egyptians that was somewhat honest, this paper starts with the author stating that it was confusing that the Egyptians matched with Sub-Saharan Africans, because when she made this study (1983), Egyptians were still thought of as a Caucasian race. But she ultimately says that Egyptians were “super negroid”. LOL.

Cultural convergence in the Neolithic of the Nile Valley: a prehistoric perspective on Egypt’s place in Africa - David Wengrow

This study shows how pre-dynastic African pastoralists (sub-Saharan Africans) were the founders of the culture that would later become Egyptian/Nubian.

Tracing the Route of Modern Humans out of Africa by Using 225 Human Genome Sequences from Ethiopians and Egyptians - Luca Pagani

This study, while not specifically about Ancient Egyptians, showed that the majority of Modern Egyptians are descendants of the Arabs who came in during the Muslim Invasions, 80% of the Non-African genome of modern Egyptians was introduced around 750 years ago, meaning a huge migration of non-Africans came in and became the dominant genome only recently.

Cultural entanglement at the dawn of the Egyptian history: a view from the Nile First Cataract region – Maria Gatto

This study shows archeological evidence, that again, at one point in time Nubians and Egyptians were indistinguishable culturally and ethnically.

Revisiting the harem conspiracy and death of Ramesses III: anthropological, forensic, radiological, and genetic study - Zahi Hawas

This study showed that Ramses III had Haplogroup E1b1a - which is West African. Just go check out the 23andMe reddit group and look to see how many AFRICAN AMERICANS have Rameses III as their paternal ancestor.

Over the last 30 years, Egyptology has moved away from the notion of Egypt being in Africa, but OUTSIDE of Africa, and most if not all Egyptology today agree that it was an African civilization, with African roots, and founded by African people. What you think is "consistency", is simply a delay in the mainstream media catching on.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNG77zwGJf4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_DD4nmyoss

I made sure to NOT include anyone you could claim was an "Afrocentrist", but well known, and well respected scholars.