Daemons of Khorne Balance

[Mhorge]

So I am playing Planetary Supremacy as the Khorne Daemons, and maybe it's just me but I find them to be severely lacking in not just killiness (which I would have suspected to be more) but also survivability - and some units just seem counter-intuitive. I truly do not think they are a balanced force.

First of all, their 'momentum' gains seem to be completely broken compared to other factions. I have only gained a full momentum bar with anything approaching some degree of regularity with the Bloodthirster (and 'regularity' is probably only 'normal' rate). I believe the largest reason for this is unlike many of the other factions is that they are primarily a melee army, which means that they basically have to be moving at their entire movement rate to try and melee, and the melee charge mechanic is pretty simplistic - direct line and can not be blocked by units or terrain props. Other units can be active in other ranges. I can't even remember what their main benefit is besides momentum adds damage (which is good in theory) - the Bloodthirster at high momentum cleaves through things to the point of it being an interesting choice whether to activate 100% for an additional action point. Something like a defence against overwatch fire? That is so situational I've had more than many turns where that just doesn't actually activate.

I also think that for a melee force, that while their damage is rather consistent across targets due to their high armour penetration, the amount of damage they inflict is rather weak because it's tied up between the characters. I have had 3 Bloodletter units attempt to kill one Arco-Flagellant unit without success (although it gets pretty close, there is about 3 flagellants left alive). This is ridiculous really, I can't really think of any unit that they are good against given the inherent risk of getting a unit up close (mainly by putting it in range of other targets and ever stretching out your own lines). I would like to see Bloodletter's get a second swing with their weapon, if only on charges.

Bloodcrushers are probably the worst unit in the entire game. Doing even less damage than the Bloodletter unit I actually kinda struggle to think of a role that they perform. I would like to say early anvil unit perhaps but even then I feel like they get butchered fairly easily. Their damage output is a joke. I presume it's all tied up in the charge ability in which case you can't control where the unit ends up, and it has a cooldown on the ability's use. And for some reason the actual Bloodcrusher (not the Bloodletter on top) does not attack.

Flesh Hounds are a unit I do like, if only for the flamer. I think Flesh Hounds really shine in zone of control defences though. From memory they have only a single attack as well but they are marginally more survivable than the Bloodletters.

I think the Bloodmaster's melee splash needs to do a little bit more damage. I think one on one the Tyranid Prime will murderize the Bloodmaster without too many issues. Does the Bloodmaster's ranged aura bonus affect itself?

Other than the Daemonic Axe variant, I think the Daemon Prince is perfect. I don't understand why you'd want less sweeping though considering I think the faction in general actually struggles with that. Having a reliable ranged weapon is nice too. I think the axe isn't an upgrade or even a side grade but an actual downgrade.

Skullcannons I think need a ranged accuracy buff and a small splash damage buff given the actual rarity of ranged weapons throughout the roster. While skullcannons are available immediately I think on balance the ranged disadvantage against the other factions should necessitate a small increase in its power (not a points drop imo). Or perhaps give it some special trait such as Ignores Cover modifiers.

Lastly the Bloodthirster. Other than it's health, which feels far to low (but then again, you can sort of spam the unit), it feels the most workable. I wouldn't mind some sort of Breath weapon though like the hounds but maybe affecting four squares.

I feel like the faction is balanced around the Gate ability, which I think is a mistake because it takes a while to get there and in the meantime you are outgunned and in many cases out-fought in the meantime.

[Tyr]

I agree with most of your points. Especially Bloodcrushers were a big letdown, they should have two attacks with additional splash dmg. Bloodletters on the other hand when stacked can dish out a lot of damage especially against armoured vehicles and heroes so maybe they could use a small splash dmg to help them against lower tier opponents.

[2320879965]

I agree that the bloodcrusher has too little damage, and the bloodmasters are too fragile. I think this faction should add a new dlc called Worldeaters or Chaos Spacemarines of Khorne so as to provide more elites and ranged attack units.

[Meep42]

First off, straight +1% damage per momentum is almost certainly the best momentum effect in the game. It's only fair that they don't generate it as easily as some other factions.

Bloodletters are a perfectly competent unit. They can struggle against multiple models, but that goes for almost all melee infantry. Otherwise, they're extremely tough for their cost and hit reasonably hard with almost perfect armour piercing. Their big weakness is getting in range, but only flamers are actually efficient at killing them, and those need to get close too.

Bloodcrushers are definitely not good, but at least they're fast and tough, so they can work to disrupt ranged units. They're at their best against Tyranids where the charge can actually pose a threat to swarms.

Flesh Hounds are great, but they're not tougher than Bloodletters. They have 5 more evasion and specifically resist hand flamers without needing a Bloodmaster buff, but otherwise have noticeably less total health and are more expensive. They also have much lower armour piercing, so they're somewhat specialised as anti-infantry.

The Bloodmaster is a strong contender for best unit in the whole game. He has a very good aura (yes, it does affect him too), is both cheaper and tougher than similar units in other factions, is still very competent in melee, and most importantly has access to the summon. At minimum that's an extra bloodletter, which is more than half his own cost, but it can roll up to a skull cannon (more expensive than he is) or a second Bloodmaster. In general I think you're right that the faction is balanced around the summon and that that's bad, but the Bloodmaster is *un*balanced around it. If he could 1v1 a Prime, a unit which is over 50% more expensive and only there to fight, that would just be insulting.

Daemon Prince is great. The axe is usually a downgrade, but it can very occasionally be worth taking if you have a strong idea of what you're going to be fighting. Because Daemons have such a limited roster it's not that rare to end up with 40 points left over, which at least makes it effectively free.

Skull cannons I think are fine. It feels bad when they have a single attack and miss, but you can also kinda spam the unit to compensate. 2-3 hits will kill most full infantry squads, and that's plenty enough damage considering they also have a full Carnifex charge.

Bloodthirster is also great. I don't know if I'd call 600 health far too low, lol. You have to be somewhat careful with him, but of course you do, he's a 300 point unit.

You didn't mention the Soul Grinder at all. I assume you forgot it exists, since it gives Bloodcrushers stiff competition for the worst unit in the faction. It's a fun unit but just way too expensive for what it can do. On the bright side, it has the best incoherent screaming in the game, just beating out Death Company IMO.


I think the fundamental problem is Daemons just don't fit planetary supremacy at all. It's a mode where you're strongly encouraged to keep your units alive and take every fight carefully as you're usually outnumbered, and Daemons are good at one thing: throwing everything forward at all costs. If they were to be buffed, I think the best option would be to give them the summon right off the bat, no tech tree required. That would give them a lot more power early on without touching them in skirmish or multiplayer in any way.

[Mhorge]

Originally posted by Meep42:

First off, straight +1% damage per momentum is almost certainly the best momentum effect in the game. It's only fair that they don't generate it as easily as some other factions.

You didn't mention the Soul Grinder at all. I assume you forgot it exists, since it gives Bloodcrushers stiff competition for the worst unit in the faction. It's a fun unit but just way too expensive for what it can do. On the bright side, it has the best incoherent screaming in the game, just beating out Death Company IMO.


I think the fundamental problem is Daemons just don't fit planetary supremacy at all. It's a mode where you're strongly encouraged to keep your units alive and take every fight carefully as you're usually outnumbered, and Daemons are good at one thing: throwing everything forward at all costs. If they were to be buffed, I think the best option would be to give them the summon right off the bat, no tech tree required. That would give them a lot more power early on without touching them in skirmish or multiplayer in any way.

First of all, I did actually forget about the Soul Grinder lol. I would like for it to have a ranged option besides the harvester cannon like on Tabletop. Perhaps some sort of hard anti-armour capability because the skullcannon certainly doesn't provide for that.

I'm not sure if I would agree that +1% damage per momentum is (almost certainly) the best momentum effect in the game because it's so hard to generate, perhaps only really able to be generated on the characters, simply because they either spend all their time running to the target, or hitting a target in melee, whereas another unit might be able to shoot at a target, gain momentum and then hit it in melee without too much in the way of momentum loss between the turns. Personally I think Necron's have the best momentum buff. However, I seem to fight necrons a lot as Khorne Daemons and that factions seems to be a hard counter (can't Scent of Blood against their units for example)

I think being able to summon off the bat would be a good balance compromise, but I'm afraid that it would just lead to character stacking, early on. Having said that, at the moment I feel very little need to actually maintain 'Army Cohesion' due to how poorly the faction handles momentum gains.