Will the balance ever get better?

[Krude]

Or is it going to remain this bad?

Like, I don't know why as battle sisters, I have to deal with pretty much losing no matter what against tyrannids because all the tyr player has to do is bring a bunch of big, high hp, high armour units and one hit my counters like retributors with exocrine abilities, meanwhile watching my battles sisters and repentia one hit by ramming abilities.

It's ass, meanwhile multi melta's do barely any damage.

A multi melta in tabletop and in lore would shred that ♥♥♥♥. but I gotta hit like what 4 times and hope my opponent is so terrible that he doesn't?

Hell no, wtf is this?

If you have 9 - 1 match ups in your game, it's not good balance. If you need your opponent to do the wrong thing or build wrong, it's not good.

[Tengs]

Feels so wierd to say this not as a meme;

Sounds like a skill issue :)

[Krude]

Originally posted by Tengs:

Feels so wierd to say this not as a meme;

Sounds like a skill issue :)

was 2nd place on one of the mtg games for 1v1, hit mythic in arena, I've entered tournaments and placed top 8 in street fighter, was more of a money matcher and managed to stay off the streets from what extra I earned making a real difference in sf4, I used to play in dow1 tournaments and won some, as have I done in cnc tib games, red 1 and 2, aoe, etc list goes on. I also used to play 40k from 8th edition till current, and a bit of 3rd back in the day.

Pretty much the only thing I haven't touched rts wise back then was starcraft.

I'm not some casual dunning Kruger effect guy who thinks he knows better lol.

But you didn't provide a solution, just shade.

You didn't even spell weird right either.

But trust a fellow total war player to talk ♥♥♥♥ instead of provide an actual valid answer.


Also looking into it, it's a commonly agreed view that tyr are sororitas worst match up.

[S-Tier-Andrew]

There have been issues with tyranid balance for a while, though, their big armored units you've mentioned aren't the reason. It has more to do with swarm units because they're too cheap for their value; they also used to give way too many command points, but that got patched last update. Tyranids do have an advantage against sisters, as well as every other faction besides daemons of khorne, but it's not as lopsided as you're describing. Besides that, sisters should have at least roughly even odds if not an outright advantage against every other faction besides khorne. Tau's still up in the air since they're new.

It seems like your frustration comes from not really understanding how the battlesisters play. They revolve around using evasion buffs to keep their units alive and gaining command points quickly as units die to fuel abilities that buff a large swath of the army; you can either spend one command point to get a ranged accuracy buff with extra crit chance, or two command points for a 2 movement point buff. The latter is usually better to aim for because it combos very well with transports and lets your more dangerous close ranged units get where they need to be. Sisters actually have some of the best units for cracking armor in the game, such as Seraphim with inferno pistols or repentia delivered by a transport; as long as you use the 2 cp ability, they have a very dangerous threat range. Retributors are typically a unit to avoid if you're not bringing their heavy flamers; just not very good relative to other units in the roster.

I don't necessarily mean to dismiss your point; there have been a lot of balance issues that tend to get touched on at a slow pace over the course of the game's development. For example, Sisters were more busted than tyranids are now when they first released and it took months for that to change. It just seems like you're complaining for the wrong reasons and could use some more time understanding the game

[Krude]

Originally posted by S-Tier-Andrew:

There have been issues with tyranid balance for a while, though, their big armored units you've mentioned aren't the reason. It has more to do with swarm units because they're too cheap for their value; they also used to give way too many command points, but that got patched last update. Tyranids do have an advantage against sisters, as well as every other faction besides daemons of khorne, but it's not as lopsided as you're describing. Besides that, sisters should have at least roughly even odds if not an outright advantage against every other faction besides khorne. Tau's still up in the air since they're new.

It seems like your frustration comes from not really understanding how the battlesisters play. They revolve around using evasion buffs to keep their units alive and gaining command points quickly as units die to fuel abilities that buff a large swath of the army; you can either spend one command point to get a ranged accuracy buff with extra crit chance, or two command points for a 2 movement point buff. The latter is usually better to aim for because it combos very well with transports and lets your more dangerous close ranged units get where they need to be. Sisters actually have some of the best units for cracking armor in the game, such as Seraphim with inferno pistols or repentia delivered by a transport; as long as you use the 2 cp ability, they have a very dangerous threat range. Retributors are typically a unit to avoid if you're not bringing their heavy flamers; just not very good relative to other units in the roster.

I don't necessarily mean to dismiss your point; there have been a lot of balance issues that tend to get touched on at a slow pace over the course of the game's development. For example, Sisters were more busted than tyranids are now when they first released and it took months for that to change. It just seems like you're complaining for the wrong reasons and could use some more time understanding the game

Nah I get that, being able to increase their hp with temp hp, having buffs by taking damage, being synergy based with great support options, it's all really fun in concept but the moment I have to rely on rng in the form of evasion to keep my counters in mp from dying because the wrong ability from two meaty monsters basically ends my counters in one click if it hits, with one of the abilities being a charge through that can't be evaded afaik? or realistically.

That's a really really ♥♥♥♥♥♥ position to be in, especially when some of said counters require you to be in range 3 to hit reliably because tyr also have evasion.

like multi melta's have never done enough damage to I can just get into range in the more open maps and deal with a big thing, the exorcist with no movement used attack can't do jack damage wise, poison essentially is a death sentence to any battle sister troop that gets sneezed on.

And on the subject of evasion, tyranids have a insanely cheap form of absolute nightmare in the form of the venomthrope, who can buff it's ranged resist and evasion while getting up close to a blob of "synergetic" battle sisters and use next turn an ability that really really hurts.

It's value town, I'm sorry but competitively I look at tyranids and think "why not just play those" but I'm not here to compete I'm here to have fun with the flavour of factions I like, but this is ridiculous af.

for what is it 60 or 70 points, tyr get that venomthrope, exposing a dilemma where the sisters have to either sacrifice a lot of units efforts to kill it before it does it's thing, or ignore it and suffer.

for the same point value as that we get a bolt pistol seraphim squad... like, what?

The AP value of most guns being low is absolutely fine, if not for the fact that the 8 ap stuff somehow doesn't feel like it scratches the enemy, like this one monster, I got into perfect range with multi melta, buffed an extra ap on it via hospita, shot once and krak'd.

Two one time use hunter killa missiles later and it's still alive...

It's so painfully clear that Tyr have just way too much value, you get point costs that honestly make me wonder why some of the other factions costs are similar, very little downside, upfront damage, tanky, utility, high armour, game winning abilities when used right, mobility, indirect damage (poison being 40 damage flat is an insane idea and this game will never really work balance wise until it's a percentage) (and no, being taxed with a hospi to heal would be fine but honestly what you are healing to keep alive just doesn't become worth healing after getting hit once by a lot of tyr stuff), synapse etc

♥♥♥♥ like this makes me really really worried about buying other dlc, and it honestly seems looking back that balance isn't this devs strong point, they are fantastic in many areas but damn this is rough.

Necrons were a mess at release if I'm reading this right.

And that's not beginning on the main point I wanted to bring up:

This is through the lense of specific game modes in mp, I forget it's name but the one where you have to hold multiple points, each giving 5 points, that is a nightmare for sisters of battle.

And I can't see Tau having a good time either.

What's the point of having fragile factions who have mechanics meant to be used in synergy, with clear upsides and downsides in exchange for them, when a faction exists where there's no downside, are strong af and the counters for some of the strong stuff are miserably ineffective.

If this was just in the lense of one singular mode, at a stretch it's ok, miserable, but ok.

But there's other game modes...

Don't get me started either on max army size battles vs tyr.

Devs need to control the options players have at their disposal to better create meaningful decisions from both sides, and really factoring what it means to add a clear cut weakness to a faction, it has to be balanced with an absolutely worthwhile gain in exchange.

Otherwise it's just a downside for the sake of it.

the way it is right now is this: Sororitas match up forces Tyr to not go swarm heavy because flame weapons absolutely trivialise them, as do mortar/exorcist/grenades, leading to a smart tyr player going heavy on armoured with some cheap distractions that MUST be dealt with. This leads to a situation where you'd be mad to bet on the sororitas player because the counters to that composition are laughably mediocre on a platform that dies to one of said monsters abilities reliably. Once you've ridden those, you are left with a lot of things that can't damage the monsters due to low ap weaponry or also die fast.

Unless I'm missing something here;

Explain how to win this situation, map has 3 points to capture in the open with only soft cover, you go first, enemy player takes points you grab off you and then blocks the cap with a monster.

you've got to remove said monsters, let's say three of them while the rest of the opponents army can rush you or range you or whatever they feel like to distract you.

You lose in 4 turns. 5 points for base cap, 15 for middle ones. that's 20, victory happens at 100.

Go on, explain.

[Meep42]

You seem completely fixated on retributors with multimeltas to deal with armour. But you've already figured it out yourself, they're just not very good. They have no survivability and the meltas don't do enough damage to justify the point cost. What you don't seem to have figured out is to stop using them then.

Seraphim with inferno pistols do very impressive damage to armour (or anything, really). But by far the best counter is Repentia in a transport. It doesn't matter that they usually get crushed after a single attack, because they can more than earn their point cost by then. Any attacks the opponent has to spend afterwards to kill them are attacks they're not using on the rest of your army, and Repentia are far too dangerous not to kill immediately.

[S-Tier-Andrew]

If you want an answer to a specific situation like that, it'd be best to demonstrate in a game. I'll post an asynch match as sisters and you can join as tyranids and see for yourself how it'd play out. I'll set the password to 15243

[Krude]

Originally posted by Meep42:

You seem completely fixated on retributors with multimeltas to deal with armour. But you've already figured it out yourself, they're just not very good. They have no survivability and the meltas don't do enough damage to justify the point cost. What you don't seem to have figured out is to stop using them then.

Seraphim with inferno pistols do very impressive damage to armour (or anything, really). But by far the best counter is Repentia in a transport. It doesn't matter that they usually get crushed after a single attack, because they can more than earn their point cost by then. Any attacks the opponent has to spend afterwards to kill them are attacks they're not using on the rest of your army, and Repentia are far too dangerous not to kill immediately.

Almost like them not being good is a sign of poor balance choices LOL.

I agree with the seraphim even tho those are also pretty damn fragile so the issue sort of remains.

But I'll admit I haven't used the transports with repentia, I'll be real I don't really like the investment in terms of points but I'll give it a try.

The real issue is now coherency, is the coherency on transports 3 only? or more?

But yeah back to the starting point, the balance is bad.

It's absolutely wild to think that something at that point cost, that is that fragile, does so little damage.

Also multimelta's being range 3 is really weird, surely they should at least be 4, in tabletop they are 18 inches, I know that's irrelevant to this game but at the same time them being the same range if i'm remembering right as things that are 12 inch in tabletop seems like a flavour fail.

range isn't even the issue, it's damage, seems the idea is to go for one off trades as if this was a chess game but it's like... then make the multi melta insanely good against armoured things, like maybe buff damage to melta and give them double shots in optimal range.

I really hope Tau don't suffer these issues.

Also one big issue with transports and repentia that stopped me from trying it is what stops your opponent from just screening the transport with expendable cheap stuff, or better using terrain chokepoints to really force an empasse or unfavourable trade situation?

Some of tyr's melee is no joke after all.

[Meep42]

Originally posted by Krude:

Almost like them not being good is a sign of poor balance choices LOL.

Can't argue there, but retributors do still have uses. The flamers are very dubious but not unusable in some matchups, the heavy bolters are actually good. Multimeltas I would expect to be more useful in planetary supremacy as it's a little easier to keep them alive than the other anti-armour units.

Originally posted by Krude:

Also one big issue with transports and repentia that stopped me from trying it is what stops your opponent from just screening the transport with expendable cheap stuff, or better using terrain chokepoints to really force an empasse or unfavourable trade situation?

Sororitas shouldn't have much problem punching through screening units with flamers. Immolators are nice for that, their own flamer is perfect for creating a gap for the Repentia, but at least 1 Rhino is also a really good pick for the smokescreen - plus you can fit an extra squad of Repentia or flamer Celestians. Terrain depends on the map, off the top of my head I don't think many have tight chokepoints around the capture points. But as long as you reach the middle at about the same time as your opponent it also limits their movement. If they won't break formation to get to you they also can't attack effectively.

Also, Seraphim are perfect for overcoming terrain. Sometimes it's important to consider the map in advance when you make your army. They're not tough, but they're not as fragile as you might think either. After activating flight once they get +10 evasion permanently, bringing them up to effectively 15 base. Unfortunately Tyranids specifically get big accuracy bonuses, but they are (probably) the best faction after all.