Pistol Reactions and Melee Counter attacks

[I Push Fat Kids]

Love the game, just never fully understood when a unit will get to hit back and when a unit can use their pistols.

I find myself not attacking back when they're next to me already, when they are charging, or attacking me after a movement. I cant find the common denominator so it just seems arbitrary.

Same goes with pistol reactions. I've had them start next to me, move then charge, and charge head on, and I've had times where I've just not had a pistol reaction. Again I can't find what the enemy is doing to remove my ability to counter.

It's clearly not fickle and there has to be a mechanic behind it. I was led to believe that charging negated melee attacks back, and charging caused pistol reactions, however I've seemed to have success and failure in every situation.

Also yes I am aware you have to be facing the target.

[Psycohitman]

u have to leave ap for reaction shoots

[I Push Fat Kids]

Originally posted by Psycohitman:

u have to leave ap for reaction shoots

Seems they happen an unlimited number of times? Ive overwatched and still gotten my reaction. I've shot and still gotten my pistol reaction. Ive shot and not gotten my pistol reaction.

[Weemdog]

You don’t need to have an AP for a unit to use Pistol Reaction.

When you attack a unit using melee, they get to melee counterattack, assuming you are attacking from their zone of control (the front 3 squares, indicated by crossed swords). Unless you charge. You can only charge on your first movement, and it has to be a direct line to the target. You get 1 extra MP when you charge. You also can’t charge if you are in the square next to the target when you start (this will be just a normal melee attack).

When you charge a target, they get to use a Pistol Reaction (assuming they have a pistol-type weapon and you are charging from their front). If you simply attack a target (ie you attack from an adjacent square), even if you are in their zone of control (crossed swords), they don’t get to use their Pistol Reaction.

Some units Pistol Reactions will Suppress and cause you to lose MP. If you lose enough MP, it will cause you to break off the charge (you will lose your AP and won’t actually attack).

Some units have weapons that are classified as Pistols, but it isn’t obvious (Termagants with Spinefists, for example).

BL: The benefit of charging is you negate the melee counter attack. But when you charge, the target gets a Pistol Reaction. Definitely charge targets that don’t have pistols, especially if they have a strong melee attack. It’s dangerous to charge units with Pistols. Some units have both (Assault Marines, for example). In this case, you have to choose which is more important.

[I Push Fat Kids]

Originally posted by Weemdog:

You don’t need to have an AP for a unit to use Pistol Reaction.

When you attack a unit using melee, they get to melee counterattack, assuming you are attacking from their zone of control (the front 3 squares, indicated by crossed swords). Unless you charge. You can only charge on your first movement, and it has to be a direct line to the target. You get 1 extra MP when you charge. You also can’t charge if you are in the square next to the target when you start (this will be just a normal melee attack).

When you charge a target, they get to use a Pistol Reaction (assuming they have a pistol-type weapon and you are charging from their front). If you simply attack a target (ie you attack from an adjacent square), even if you are in their zone of control (crossed swords), they don’t get to use their Pistol Reaction.

Some units Pistol Reactions will Suppress and cause you to lose MP. If you lose enough MP, it will cause you to break off the charge (you will lose your AP and won’t actually attack).

Some units have weapons that are classified as Pistols, but it isn’t obvious (Termagants with Spinefists, for example).

BL: The benefit of charging is you negate the melee counter attack. But when you charge, the target gets a Pistol Reaction. Definitely charge targets that don’t have pistols, especially if they have a strong melee attack. It’s dangerous to charge units with Pistols. Some units have both (Assault Marines, for example). In this case, you have to choose which is more important.

I have had units get their pistol reaction from adjacent units as well as units charging.

[Meep42]

Originally posted by I Push Fat Kids:

I have had units get their pistol reaction from adjacent units as well as units charging.

Some abilities count as charges regardless of any other circumstances. Most notable is Hormagaunts' 1-tile leap, which the AI loves to use even if it gets them killed.

[Weemdog]

Yes. These abilities will include "Counts as a Charge" in the description.

Melee Jump Infantry (Assault Marines, Death Company, Stormboyz) will Charge when they use their ability.

Units like Thornback, Skull Cannon, and Blood Crusher are vulnerable to Pistol Reaction when they use their ability.

[I Push Fat Kids]

Awesome thanks guys makes a lot more sense now.

[Fawxkitteh]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it appears that eliminating models in a unit, or surrounding the unit can reduce its area of control for melee reactions.
I'm pretty sure I've had Venomthropes I couldn't run by, but then either killed one of them or had a unit land behind them, and then I could run by with the original unit.

[Meep42]

Originally posted by Fawxkitteh:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it appears that eliminating models in a unit, or surrounding the unit can reduce its area of control for melee reactions.
I'm pretty sure I've had Venomthropes I couldn't run by, but then either killed one of them or had a unit land behind them, and then I could run by with the original unit.

The key is the 'engaged' debuff. If you engage a unit with melee attacks, it loses its zone of control against any unit but its engager. If you have multiple units that have melee'd a single target, you can see which one is engaging by clicking the enemy and mousing over the debuff, and you can change which one it is by facing your units away and back again in the right order.

Also be aware that some large units can only be engaged by other large units. This used to be only the original BA and Tyranid units (meaning except the Invictor), but apparently the devs realised this was a mechanic and added it to Deff Dreads recently. I don't know if any other units were changed too.

[ReverendMeat]

How come I can't charge with assault marines?

[Weemdog]

You can totally charge with Assault Marines. Make sure it is your first move (you can't move 1 square, then do your charge), and make sure it is a direct line (you can't charge around other units or obstacles).

[ReverendMeat]

Yeah I tried. Hot seat vs myself just to figure out the mechanic. Could charge with various nid units but I could not charge with assault marines.

[Weemdog]

To try to get to the bottom of things…what is it specifically that isn’t happening that you think should be happening (or vice versa)? What unit are you charging?

The only thing you should be seeing is 1 more MP and the target not being able to melee counter attack (and using a pistol counter attack, if applicable).

[ReverendMeat]

Okay tried again and it's because highlighting the model I was trying to charge it just said "target is out of range" which only referred to the hand flamers and I hadn't noticed the chainsword icon wasn't grayed out. My bad