Consequences for lost units in campaign?

[DJ]

I typically play TBS games with the presumption that I can win a cookie if I play through the hardest mode and win another cookie if I prevent losses.

But neither of these things seem to matter beyond the personal challenge. Can anyone say for a fact if they do? Are the any mechanical points or achievements to consider?

Reason for asking, I am struggling to easily complete the 'protect afk dreadnought' mission without a single unit loss on hardest difficulty. There's nothing clever going on; it's just an spam thing. Do I need to care before continuing on (returning later to solve the puzzle if possible) or can I just let some beakies kick the bucket?

[Old Gin]

Beakies? Where? There's no consequences as far as I know, just that units that survive earn purity seals for each mission they go through. They don't do anything aside from let you know how many missions they've survived.

Its a neat feature since its probably likely there's some reward for a no death run like an achievement but I wouldn't say much more than that. You're not missing anything for keeping your units alive, this is like 40k TT after all - a lot of your dudes die no matter what.

[Terrapin]

No, you do not need to care. Veterancy is irrelevant atm. While that bothered me at first, I can't seem to keep my troops alive so the point is moot to me.

[Zebedee]

There are some incampaign rewards for keeping specific units alive for secondary/bonus objectives but they're mission specific and it's not a general mission thing. I'd not stress trying to keep everything alive even then, on hardest difficulty there's still a fair chunk of luck to doing it.

For the mission you're on, praise the Emperor and move on would be my advice.

[breezingthrough]

Originally posted by Terrapin:

No, you do not need to care. Veterancy is irrelevant atm. While that bothered me at first, I can't seem to keep my troops alive so the point is moot to me. :lunar2019laughingpig: :inquisition:

This is more or less why it should not be moot. If you get to the point where you do not care if units get wiped out, then it shows lack of commitment to the armies you play with and there fore a lack of care to the results. Were a Veteran or Ranking, Exp what ever is needed, that adds to a connection with the unit. I knew my trusted units in Sanctus Reach by name, knew each unigue skill they earned. I pulled them out of danger before they were lost, I cared when one got turned into a Red puddle or mass of bodies. Regretting it more so in Armageddon then SR were a lost meant a full reset of that unit. Now I watch them explode by the dozen and feel like a Commissar as I shrug off the tallies as long as the end result is pushing onto the next mission.

[alsoalpharius]

Whilst you can upgrade your individual units if they survive long enough, I have found that it doesn't have much of an affect in the long run compared to just replacing them.

[Jeffreyac]

Originally posted by breezingthrough:

Originally posted by Terrapin:

No, you do not need to care. Veterancy is irrelevant atm. While that bothered me at first, I can't seem to keep my troops alive so the point is moot to me. :lunar2019laughingpig: :inquisition:

This is more or less why it should not be moot. If you get to the point where you do not care if units get wiped out, then it shows lack of commitment to the armies you play with and there fore a lack of care to the results. Were a Veteran or Ranking, Exp what ever is needed, that adds to a connection with the unit. I knew my trusted units in Sanctus Reach by name, knew each unigue skill they earned. I pulled them out of danger before they were lost, I cared when one got turned into a Red puddle or mass of bodies. Regretting it more so in Armageddon then SR were a lost meant a full reset of that unit. Now I watch them explode by the dozen and feel like a Commissar as I shrug off the tallies as long as the end result is pushing onto the next mission.

I think there's room for caring about losses, but still accepting some are inevitable. I don't throw my troops in needlessly, and try very hard to keep them alive from mission to mission. But, at the same time, they're space marines, and they're fighting tyranids - and if some die despite my best efforts, especially in completing the goal or perhaps sacraficing their lives to protect their brothers - I figure they'll be remembered with honor in the rolls of the chapter!

I, like you, prefer a mission with no losses. But a military commander can't always have to luxury of having 'zero casualties' be a mission directive - 'minimal casualties', sure, but zero is a hard number to guarantee when bullets are flying.

Hey, with this said - I salute you for making that an objective of yours, and as always say play how you like. For example, I stand by what I've typed (for me, for this game) - but at the same time will bend over backwards in many games to try to achieve the same zero casualty result you're chasing! It's one of the reason I keep ragequitting Battle Brothers - I just can't keep my guys alive, and it bugs me on that game.

[OneKingDown]

Theres a problem with this right off the bat tho, cause theres absolutly nothing you can do against that tyranid artillery unit. Its will one shot a unit from time to times, In a particular mission, i deployed my units and Ai got first turn. Artillery unit wiped 1 of my plasma unit before i could even move em. Achivement lost just like that? from something i coudnt even do something about? Couple mission later I even tried once to shoot and scoot behind a wall, didnt worked , it shot and destroyed that sister unit trough a wall.

This game wasnt meant to have unit preservation in mind apparently.

[Jeffreyac]

Originally posted by OneKingDown:

This game wasnt meant to have unit preservation in mind apparently.

Well, to be fair, "In the grim darkness of the far future, there is only war."

The whole setting is kinda built on the sort of mentality that dying in the service of the cause is acceptable and honorable - for the Marines, they serve the emperor and dying in his service is honorable. For the 'nids, they're not even individuals, but part of the whole - the swarm is what matters. So, I dunno - I think you're right, that the game wasn't really meant for unit preservation being a priority, but I also don't think that's jarring or against the Canon.

It's... well, it's like if I made a WWI trench warfare simluator. If it was true to the setting - would you expect to get through a battle and not lose anyone? If you could - well, I'd argue that the game wasn't well designed or balanced....

[OneKingDown]

Originally posted by Jeffreyac:

Originally posted by OneKingDown:

This game wasnt meant to have unit preservation in mind apparently.

Well, to be fair, "In the grim darkness of the far future, there is only war."

The whole setting is kinda built on the sort of mentality that dying in the service of the cause is acceptable and honorable - for the Marines, they serve the emperor and dying in his service is honorable. For the 'nids, they're not even individuals, but part of the whole - the swarm is what matters. So, I dunno - I think you're right, that the game wasn't really meant for unit preservation being a priority, but I also don't think that's jarring or against the Canon.

It's... well, it's like if I made a WWI trench warfare simluator. If it was true to the setting - would you expect to get through a battle and not lose anyone? If you could - well, I'd argue that the game wasn't well designed or balanced....

Didnt said i agreed or not to the matter, as for ''fluff wise'' if unit preservation is a thing, imperial guards trow soldiers in the meat grinder in the hope of draining the ennemy out of ammo. But space marines are valuable and limited, so they do care about their preservation. Dying for the emperor is fine, suiciding for him is not.

Weather it makes sense or not, i think unit preservation incentive is a plus for any game especially for its re-playability. This games lacks it. Just my humble opinion of course.

[DJ]

I've read through the comments - there is indeed a 'no lost squads' achievement then?

That doesn't strike me as doable on the hardest difficulty, given what I've seen (and I've done perfect runs on Final Theory and Templar Battle Force, perhaps the hardest doable examples I've seen since UFO: Enemy Unknown).

Right I'm going to try a different approach to the afk dreadnought thing, then, but I don't like the sound of the exocrine mission that lies ahead if the goal is to not lose a squad

[Zebedee]

Originally posted by DJ:

I've read through the comments - there is indeed a 'no lost squads' achievement then?

No there's not. On hardest difficulty there are missions where it is close to impossible to keep every unit alive.

[DJ]

Indeed.

The 'AFK Dreadnought' mission has left me with one untried approach (which is going to be tedious as fuchk to attempt). Even then, I expect to fail, and it sounds like the exocrine ambush thing is even worse.

I'm close to declaring a no-loss run on the hardest difficulty functionally impossible, too.

This is the problem with difficulty-via-spam scaling, instead of actual puzzle stuff.

[DJ]

(Unexpectedly, just managed a lossless run thru 'afk dreadnought' on hardest. Difficult to say if my upgrade choices are the only ones that will allow it, it's my first run and I've no idea. Using mass HP-upgraded intercessors, nades, and a couple of hellblasters).

[Zebedee]

Astropathic Relay is definitely possible to complete without loss on Captain. There's two later missions where it's theoretically possible but there's a lot of dumb luck involved. I've done one without loss (Place of Challenge), the other (on the release build at Captain difficulty at least) I can't see how it is possible. Battle for Angel's Fall - saving all Sisters of Battle units. Always lose at least one.

[DJ]

Just manged a lossless hardest completion of the exocrine ambush. Found it far easier than AFK Dreadnought. Army was a simple 5 dreds with both +20HP upgrades and bee-lined for the exocrines. Mopped-up / defended with prios as follows: horms > gargs > wars > terms while kiting the tfexes. Had to dance a little a few times but it was nothing like as bad as the previous mission.