What is the deal with monsters? Seems very weak

[cANe]

After finishing my first run with Red and ignoring monsters and mechs I decided to go for T260 and I've been using Riki in my party since the beginning. However even now "late" into the story where I have managed to turn him into a black dragon his damage is just so sub par no matter what skill I use.

What am I missing? I can't imagine him being able to pull his own weight in the last area of the game if it's gonna be remotely as tough as the ending for Red.

Are there some must have skills that make a huge difference or what else am I missing?

[Lioness 西施]

I am no expert, and this may not help if you've already transformed Riki into a black dragon, but I figure I should post it anyway, even if it's only for any curious passersby:

https://essenceofsaga.wordpress.com/home/book-index/monster-system/

There are some people who swear by monsters, though.

A monster with Magic Heal and Life Rain can be really good, but that depends on your setup. Dullahan transformations give monsters a Dullahan Shield, apparently.

Essence recommends:
Griffith Scratch
Mighty Cyclone
Magnetic Storm
Gale Attack
Titas Wave
Ground Hit

Some of these names will be different in the Remaster, but I did use a few of these abilities and wasn't very impressed. I felt the same as you.

[Nicholai]

Originally posted by cANe:

After finishing my first run with Red and ignoring monsters and mechs I decided to go for T260 and I've been using Riki in my party since the beginning. However even now "late" into the story where I have managed to turn him into a black dragon his damage is just so sub par no matter what skill I use.

What am I missing? I can't imagine him being able to pull his own weight in the last area of the game if it's gonna be remotely as tough as the ending for Red.

Are there some must have skills that make a huge difference or what else am I missing?

GameFAQs has an updated guide that is very thorough and detailed when it comes to monsters. They are "okay" as they are only as strong as your Battle Ranking is. Places like Biolab will help you have a slightly higher leveled monster pool but they'll never be as OP "In the moment" as humans are as they rise with battle ranking. Monsters are just gimp in that respect but are great later.

[cANe]

Originally posted by Lioness 西施:

I am no expert, and this may not help if you've already transformed Riki into a black dragon, but I figure I should post it anyway, even if it's only for any curious passersby:

https://essenceofsaga.wordpress.com/home/book-index/monster-system/

There are some people who swear by monsters, though.

A monster with Magic Heal and Life Rain can be really good, but that depends on your setup. Dullahan transformations give monsters a Dullahan Shield, apparently.

Essence recommends:
Griffith Scratch
Mighty Cyclone
Magnetic Storm
Gale Attack
Titas Wave
Ground Hit

Some of these names will be different in the Remaster, but I did use a few of these abilities and wasn't very impressed. I felt the same as you.

Yea I was lucky to pick up magic heal somewhere along the way and that one ability has helped a lot but I guess I expected more from a top rank monster transformation other than being a heal bot.

Not sure if I have any of those skills but I have Siren, Earthquake, Stampede and Petrification spray which all seem like high tier skills but they rarely ever do anything.

At this point I really dread having to go up against the last boss with my 2x mech and 1 robot lineup with only 2 humans

[Paper Rabbit]

I've absorbed a good chunk of monster skills and turned Riki into a Black Dragon with Magic Heal, Life Rain, Mighty Cyclone, and Ignis. (yes there's one skill missing, but I'm still trying to absorb the last few missing ones for a complete skill table) The main damage dealers will always be Mighty Cyclone and Ignis level spells. Of course the problem with these is that they are a royal pain in the butt to get. What I like about my Riki Black Dragon is his generous pool of JP so I can go wild and spam spells. Black Dragon is also pretty tanky with its healthy HP pool and decent resistance to most status. Usually I don't need to worry about Riki dying. I can just plop Riki and a human I intend to grind at the Bio Lab and have Riki spam Magic Heal all the time. Within 20 minutes of just Riki Black Dragin and a human against Zyphon, the human will have picked up a few glimmers in that time frame.

Personally I still prefer human parties, but having a tanky dragon in your party is also really nice. (and looks pretty darn swag) It's just that it takes so much time to invest in a proper one. In the time frame to make a Black Dragon/Dullahan you can have a few decent mecs or decked out humans already if you grind the smart way. Pain in the butt to chain combos with monsters too if you don't have the skills. Screw you Virgil and your combo quest.

Riki mainly fills the support role in my party anyway. Everyone else is better at dealing more damage, easier at chaining combos. WIth Riki holding Magic Heal I don't need to waste a human to carry gimpy heal spell or backpack.

[Nicholai]

Originally posted by Paper Rabbit:

I've absorbed a good chunk of monster skills and turned Riki into a Black Dragon with Magic Heal, Life Rain, Mighty Cyclone, and Ignis. (yes there's one skill missing, but I'm still trying to absorb the last few missing ones for a complete skill table) The main damage dealers will always be Mighty Cyclone and Ignis level spells. Of course the problem with these is that they are a royal pain in the butt to get. What I like about my Riki Black Dragon is his generous pool of JP so I can go wild and spam spells. Black Dragon is also pretty tanky with its healthy HP pool and decent resistance to most status. Usually I don't need to worry about Riki dying. I can just plop Riki and a human I intend to grind at the Bio Lab and have Riki spam Magic Heal all the time. Within 20 minutes of just Riki Black Dragin and a human against Zyphon, the human will have picked up a few glimmers in that time frame.

Personally I still prefer human parties, but having a tanky dragon in your party is also really nice. (and looks pretty darn swag) It's just that it takes so much time to invest in a proper one. In the time frame to make a Black Dragon/Dullahan you can have a few decent mecs or decked out humans already if you grind the smart way. Pain in the butt to chain combos with monsters too if you don't have the skills. Screw you Virgil and your combo quest.

Riki mainly fills the support role in my party anyway. Everyone else is better at dealing more damage, easier at chaining combos. WIth Riki holding Magic Heal I don't need to waste a human to carry gimpy heal spell or backpack.

If you're utilizing NG+ you'll get to a point where you won't even need heals. My Rouge wearing the LDRV setup with 96 vit is just absurd.

[justdev42]

Monsters are rough but all non-humans are better for healing, buff/debuff, or tanking. Humans are your damage dealers.
Since I've put too much time in this game over the years, I tried to make unique teams for each playthrough. Did melee only for Red, solo for Blue, Guns only for Emelia, monster only for Riki, Mystics / Half-Mystics / magic only for Asellus, Lute swords, and T260G mech only. (Just went ham for Fuse)
Riki was the second hardest and the most painful/time consuming, ended up with two chimeras, mariche, black dragon and a crystal tree. Had a Dullahan but having deathsythesis interfered too much with healing. Anyone else trying this should just get scalding gas for 5 chimera forms from chimera, photosynthesis for healing from most plants, petrifying gas (rareish skill from crystal tree and dullahan ) is nice for farming Krakens for cyclone or maelstrom and insta-stone works on a surprising amount of final rank enemies including dullahan. Get magical heal from unicorns, and Flames of passion is a skill on several fairy types and is a good damage dealer/heal source (like dark grab magic) outside of undead and mechs that can also charm.
Blue was the hardest due to Kylin or Time Lord. Beefing up his VIT getting martial skills would of helped significantly but I was trying to just use magic, but broke down and used gun a bit too. Kylin's healing 1000 per turn plus damage was very hard to overcome, had to heal every other turn which canceled out the damage done the prior turn. Ended fighting time lord, with angel armor, unicorn tear, thunder charm and sand vessel. This made blue immune to a lot of Time lord abilities but was still a very long battle and time lord uses overdrive very soon after hitting half health easily knocking you out still. (anything under 40000/80000 for when I fought him) I was able to keep track of damage then defend every turn till overdrive was cast. Under defense and dodging several ground attacks was able to survive. Then out of JP Time lord used ground attacks often enough that vitality rune kept me up without healing most turns. Just added reviver to skills and easily able finish rest of story. (Could probably Tower through overdrive/entire battle on lower battle ranks)
Red's was a pain because team wasn't built well to combo and got stuck on Berva for a while. Aselsus was a pain because getting the mystic team I wanted took forever to actually get then getting the gift. I was surprised how quick/easy gun only was, didn't have to heal at all in final boss. Mech team was hard to balance and combo, T260 was a beast but rest underpowered, jumped in final final area too soon and mech enemies variety minimal to fix it. Swords went simply and as expected.

[Intra]

Originally posted by Nicholai:

If you're utilizing NG+ you'll get to a point where you won't even need heals. My Rouge wearing the LDRV setup with 96 vit is just absurd.

lol wait until you fight the new super bosses. They ignore defense (and block / deflect) and one shot.

Also what is LDRV?

[Nicholai]

Originally posted by Intra:

Originally posted by Nicholai:

If you're utilizing NG+ you'll get to a point where you won't even need heals. My Rouge wearing the LDRV setup with 96 vit is just absurd.

lol wait until you fight the new super bosses. They ignore defense (and block / deflect) and one shot.

Also what is LDRV?

Lowest Defense Resistance Values. You want these over just "defense rating" They are the raw resistance you obtain from wearing armor pieces. The setup with the lowest puts you at values of: 70 70 90 70 70 70 95 95

While super bosses will bypass your raw armor stat, these values will not, and cannot be circumvented by them. Your defense is accumulative with vitality defense. These values will remain true against the attack types which is what can make it so powerful. Even without 99 vit and the 60 defense this setup gives you, their attacks will always suffer the 70% type resistance as well as ailment rates at 95% on your humans.

[Lioness 西施]

So, I've been farming equipment for my team of Emilia, Fuse, Rouge, Mesarthim, and Time Lord.

The thought has occurred to me: If I'd replaced Mesarthim with a monster who had Life Rain, I'd have almost the same character and more shields/Glirandly swords to go around.

Monsters are very cost effective!

Farming Dullahan shields and Glirandly swords is hard enough, but adding Genbu shields, Powered Suits, a Light Rifle, or an Asura on top of that can be very costly, and even if you have a ton of credits, it's still time consuming to get some of these.

In the original game, when you only had one Asura, one Silver Moon, etc. having a monster meant there was less competition for these rare items.

So, monsters may even be a little nerfed now, indirectly, because of NG+.

[medes24]

The mechanics are almost incomprehensible if you play blind but there are detailed guides for how to get what forms and when you have this information monsters are much more useful. They tend to outpace humans in the mid game before bottoming out in the end game. I still think it is useful to bring a monster to the final boss of each scenario because monsters can be equipped with Magic Heal and Rain of Life, two of the most useful healing skills. This frees up your other characters to equip additional support magic or just go pure DPS.

One thing to remember is that every time you absorb a skill ~for the first time~ you get a permanent HP buff to the monster so ultimately you want to settle on your monster early and absorb skills with him often.

[NewMoonShadow]

Originally posted by Lioness 西施:

So, I've been farming equipment for my team of Emilia, Fuse, Rouge, Mesarthim, and Time Lord.

The thought has occurred to me: If I'd replaced Mesarthim with a monster who had Life Rain, I'd have almost the same character and more shields/Glirandly swords to go around.

Monsters are very cost effective!

Farming Dullahan shields and Glirandly swords is hard enough, but adding Genbu shields, Powered Suits, a Light Rifle, or an Asura on top of that can be very costly, and even if you have a ton of credits, it's still time consuming to get some of these.

In the original game, when you only had one Asura, one Silver Moon, etc. having a monster meant there was less competition for these rare items.

So, monsters may even be a little nerfed now, indirectly, because of NG+.

Does anything even matter if you're NG+'ing it? You're going to become wildly overpowered no matter what, so what you equip/who you recruit after the first run is almost irrelevant, since it's all gonna be end-game and getting better throughout.

[Lioness 西施]

Originally posted by NewMoonShadow:

Originally posted by Lioness 西施:

So, I've been farming equipment for my team of Emilia, Fuse, Rouge, Mesarthim, and Time Lord.

The thought has occurred to me: If I'd replaced Mesarthim with a monster who had Life Rain, I'd have almost the same character and more shields/Glirandly swords to go around.

Monsters are very cost effective!

Farming Dullahan shields and Glirandly swords is hard enough, but adding Genbu shields, Powered Suits, a Light Rifle, or an Asura on top of that can be very costly, and even if you have a ton of credits, it's still time consuming to get some of these.

In the original game, when you only had one Asura, one Silver Moon, etc. having a monster meant there was less competition for these rare items.

So, monsters may even be a little nerfed now, indirectly, because of NG+.

Does anything even matter if you're NG+'ing it? You're going to become wildly overpowered no matter what, so what you equip/who you recruit after the first run is almost irrelevant, since it's all gonna be end-game and getting better throughout.

That's sort of my point. Monsters can lose value when you become that strong and have four characters with DSC and 99 in nearly every stat.

But it can matter still. If you really want to push everything to the max, farming Glirandly swords, Dullahan shields, and stats takes a long time. 3-4 humans (with or without Time Lord) + Mesarthim is really intensive to max out.

With a monster in the group, you're beating the 2nd Div Masked Giant that much quicker, and can still kill scenario bosses in 4-5 turns.

[ErzPaladin]

funny that ppl claim this game would be fairly easy compared to its sequel (while some even claim the sequel would be easy). Those games are normally considered being played without internet and blind (= without insight before starting the game while only collecting your own experiences)... >>

[Intra]

Originally posted by Lioness 西施:

But it can matter still. If you really want to push everything to the max, farming Glirandly swords, Dullahan shields, and stats takes a long time. 3-4 humans (with or without Time Lord) + Mesarthim is really intensive to max out.

With a monster in the group, you're beating the 2nd Div Masked Giant that much quicker, and can still kill scenario bosses in 4-5 turns.

I disagree. Maxing Mesarthim is much easier than absorbing every monster skill in the game to attempt to max a monster's hp. The monster also does much lower DPS and has lower defenses. Farming Living Swords for Gilrandly is extremely easy, The hardest part is Dullahan Shield, and you can "make do" with New Game + easily farmed Dragon Shields. Compare that to literally filling out a spreadsheet and cross-referencing a guide on which monsters have which skills to absorb and tell me how that's not harder.

The slowest part might actually be farming spells on Mystics. Or if you're a glutton for punishment and want to max WP / JP for some reason.

[Lioness 西施]

Raising monster HP really doesn't take that long, and neither does absorbing a set of powerful skills. Sei and Kylin start with a lot of HP, and you really don't need to absorb every ability to get a high HP value. That's a bit of a fallacy. A lot of monsters have very good health pools.

Honestly, there wasn't a lot to learn or do. Just look at Essence for the form you want, and understand that a new ability = HP growth. Riki ended up with 720+ HP very fast (edited to avoid potential misunderstandings.)

But my point was that different players are going to be in different situations, with different thresholds for grinding, and they'll judge the cost requirements differently, and for some, monsters definitely have a place.