Please rework or remove the bestial success system.

[abbo1993]

As of title, the system, aside from being very inaccurate compared to the tabletop, is also really annoying in the game prope. Can't feed or take phisical actions without someone dying I've tried playing a standard game without cheating and I tried with a maxed character and the result are mostly the same.

[Valbruch]

Just curious - what is wrong with the system? I played through the game 2 times and never killed anyone during feeding.

[abbo1993]

Originally posted by Valbruch:

Just curious - what is wrong with the system? I played through the game 2 times and never killed anyone during feeding.

Basically If your skills are too high, everytime you have to do something phisically, like feeding or attacking someone, you end up killing innocent folks most of the time.

[Wittand25]

How high is your hunger?

I only have this problem if my hunger is too high.

[abbo1993]

Originally posted by Wittand25:

How high is your hunger?

I only have this problem if my hunger is too high.

It happened even at one hunger to me.

[abbo1993]

I don't know why they chose to do it this way, If my resolve and composure are high enough I should at least get the option to spend willpower as to not frenzy.

[Dusty]

It's a critical success -- basically you succeed SO well that you kill the poor bugger.

It's part of V5, IIRC, that was implemented into VTMNR. Too many successes while feeding and you kill your prey.

Not saying you're wrong to dislike it (once of my Couriers basically ALWAYS kills her prey and has very low humanity because of it each time I play her), but just leaving that there.

[abbo1993]

Originally posted by Dusty:

It's a critical success -- basically you succeed SO well that you kill the poor bugger.

It's part of V5, IIRC, that was implemented into VTMNR. Too many successes while feeding and you kill your prey.

Not saying you're wrong to dislike it (once of my Couriers basically ALWAYS kills her prey and has very low humanity because of it each time I play her), but just leaving that there.

In the tabletop you can counter a critical success with composure, resolve and humanity, here the game basically turn you in a wigh for the moment even if you have high stats in all three. My suggestion would be to let you use willpower to avoid frenzy expecially because at high level you get like 7 or 8 dots of it and can't do anything with it.

[Valbruch]

Originally posted by abbo1993:

Originally posted by Dusty:

It's a critical success -- basically you succeed SO well that you kill the poor bugger.

It's part of V5, IIRC, that was implemented into VTMNR. Too many successes while feeding and you kill your prey.

Not saying you're wrong to dislike it (once of my Couriers basically ALWAYS kills her prey and has very low humanity because of it each time I play her), but just leaving that there.

In the tabletop you can counter a critical success with composure, resolve and humanity, here the game basically turn you in a wigh for the moment even if you have high stats in all three. My suggestion would be to let you use willpower to avoid frenzy expecially because at high level you get like 7 or 8 dots of it and can't do anything with it.

In the TT you can't use composure, resolve or humanity to counter critical successes (both ordinary and messy) either. You can roll to resist frenzy but all you can do with crits is try to "downgrade" them with willpower rerolls (and even that is a lot harder and sometimes impossible with messy crits).

[abbo1993]

Originally posted by Valbruch:

Originally posted by abbo1993:

In the tabletop you can counter a critical success with composure, resolve and humanity, here the game basically turn you in a wigh for the moment even if you have high stats in all three. My suggestion would be to let you use willpower to avoid frenzy expecially because at high level you get like 7 or 8 dots of it and can't do anything with it.

In the TT you can't use composure, resolve or humanity to counter critical successes (both ordinary and messy) either. You can roll to resist frenzy but all you can do with crits is try to "downgrade" them with willpower rerolls (and even that is a lot harder and sometimes impossible with messy crits).

Messy crits aren't that common to begin with in the tabletop, in the game everytime you try to do something as simple as feeding you end up killing someone, I would say that this is too much of a deviation from the source material and not a particularly fun one either, also I distinctly remember that the roll to resist a frenzy was willpower+humanity and composure and resolve could be used to reduce the difficulty check for a frenzy, altough not everytime.

[Marshall]

I too think the Messy Critical system could use some attention. I have not played any of the recent WoD games, just older editions of VtM and VtR, so this is my first experience with Messy Cricals and my comments are just about how they work in Night Roads. Overall, I do like that the devs are trying to integrate the presence of the Beast into the gameplay in new ways, but the execution could be improved here.

My first criticism, is that the current system is hard to understand. I think for most RPG players it's pretty unintuitive to have major negative consequences for doing too well. Even though I read all the in-game Journal entries back when I first bought Night Roads, I didn't really get the idea here until I had killed a few humans while hunting. In-game it's explained best by Dove, when you're playing a Nosferatu. For reference, here's the quote I copied from the game file:

"You're practicing on cows for a reason," the Dove says. "Look at what you did to this majestic animal. What if you do that to a person? you need to control yourself, ${name}. You need to control your Beast. You're frustrated, I know: your approach was perfect, your attack flawless. But that's the problem. Push too hard, overwhelm your prey—or your enemies—too thoroughly, and the Beast slips free. You need to practice control every moment of your existence. No cutting loose, or you'll regret it. That's not fair, I know. But nothing about our existence is fair. Now let's get back in the Lincoln and get back to civilization."

I suggest there be some automatic in-game explanation of this mechanic before your first hunt in Tuscon, so new players don't feel surprised. It's thematically appropriate for the character to live in an unfair universe, but this is info our character is definitely aware of, and we players generally like to be aware of gameplay mechanics like this that could influence our roleplaying decisions, before we have a corpse on our hands. Right now, I think the system only gets mentioned before you actually have a MC if you play a Brujah, and then only briefly.

My second criticism of the MC system, is that we don't know what our target number of successes is for any given challenge, making it hard to avoid them if you build your character well. I may still succeed the skill check, but it still feels annoying to me, and sometimes out of place. Even my Lasombra with max Resolve and Composure (and therefore, Willpower), and just one block of Hunger immediately loses his control when any combat starts.. or just when trying to open a locker or a door with his crowbar.... You can't really play as a 'suave' vampire when you lose control so easily.

My suggestion is just to let the player spend willpower to resist, or try to resist at least, a MC. There is at least one option like this if you go to the auction to help Chiara, and try to take out a guard. If y choose to feed on the guy, you can spend a willpower point to make sure you don't drain him dry, and that's exactly what I'd like to see in other hunting/combat scenes. This would also make willpower more important, and therefore also picking and sticking with your Convictions to restore it.

[abbo1993]

Originally posted by Marshall:

I too think the Messy Critical system could use some attention. I have not played any of the recent WoD games, just older editions of VtM and VtR, so this is my first experience with Messy Cricals and my comments are just about how they work in Night Roads. Overall, I do like that the devs are trying to integrate the presence of the Beast into the gameplay in new ways, but the execution could be improved here.

My first criticism, is that the current system is hard to understand. I think for most RPG players it's pretty unintuitive to have major negative consequences for doing too well. Even though I read all the in-game Journal entries back when I first bought Night Roads, I didn't really get the idea here until I had killed a few humans while hunting. In-game it's explained best by Dove, when you're playing a Nosferatu. For reference, here's the quote I copied from the game file:

"You're practicing on cows for a reason," the Dove says. "Look at what you did to this majestic animal. What if you do that to a person? you need to control yourself, ${name}. You need to control your Beast. You're frustrated, I know: your approach was perfect, your attack flawless. But that's the problem. Push too hard, overwhelm your prey—or your enemies—too thoroughly, and the Beast slips free. You need to practice control every moment of your existence. No cutting loose, or you'll regret it. That's not fair, I know. But nothing about our existence is fair. Now let's get back in the Lincoln and get back to civilization."

I suggest there be some automatic in-game explanation of this mechanic before your first hunt in Tuscon, so new players don't feel surprised. It's thematically appropriate for the character to live in an unfair universe, but this is info our character is definitely aware of, and we players generally like to be aware of gameplay mechanics like this that could influence our roleplaying decisions, before we have a corpse on our hands. Right now, I think the system only gets mentioned before you actually have a MC if you play a Brujah, and then only briefly.

My second criticism of the MC system, is that we don't know what our target number of successes is for any given challenge, making it hard to avoid them if you build your character well. I may still succeed the skill check, but it still feels annoying to me, and sometimes out of place. Even my Lasombra with max Resolve and Composure (and therefore, Willpower), and just one block of Hunger immediately loses his control when any combat starts.. or just when trying to open a locker or a door with his crowbar.... You can't really play as a 'suave' vampire when you lose control so easily.

My suggestion is just to let the player spend willpower to resist, or try to resist at least, a MC. There is at least one option like this if you go to the auction to help Chiara, and try to take out a guard. If y choose to feed on the guy, you can spend a willpower point to make sure you don't drain him dry, and that's exactly what I'd like to see in other hunting/combat scenes. This would also make willpower more important, and therefore also picking and sticking with your Convictions to restore it.

My suggestion exactly, a character with high resolve and composure ends with so many willpower points that you really don't know what to do with them, so using them to "control" frenzies would be a better idea. Frankly at this point I doubt that the dev even read the steam forums since the game is basically complete they won't lose time to rework this mechanich, still worth trying.