Borderlands 4

Borderlands 4

Vanythe Sep 29, 2024 @ 4:10pm
2
Is it gonna be another grindfest with insane drm attached?
As much as I love Borderlands 2, I absolutely hated the constant re-grind through main story, completely broken end-game with "bajillion" high numbers and the few weapons that actually had any chance of defeating OP LV 9000 Enemies with quadrillion amount of hp.

Borderlands 3 was the one where I simply didn't care for literally any of the characters, Story was awful, gunplay was mid at best. The DRM was another story.

So, Borderlands 4... Will the issues above be adressed? Or is it gonna be yet another endless grindfest instead of having a set end-game with things to do rather than replaying the same story over and over again just to get the same items with higher numbers? Also, DRM? Denuvo is a no buy, wouldn't install the game even if it was free if it has it.
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Showing 1-15 of 18 comments
DoDonPachi Oct 12, 2024 @ 1:17pm 
its a looter shooter. You shoot and you loot. Dont like that kind of gameplay? dont play.
Vanythe Oct 12, 2024 @ 10:29pm 
Originally posted by DoDonPachi:
its a looter shooter. You shoot and you loot. Dont like that kind of gameplay? dont play.
Greetings, are you capable of reading, understanding and analyzing raw text? Because if you can, you have failed miserably at it.
DoDonPachi Oct 13, 2024 @ 10:04am 
Originally posted by Vanythe:
Originally posted by DoDonPachi:
its a looter shooter. You shoot and you loot. Dont like that kind of gameplay? dont play.
Greetings, are you capable of reading, understanding and analyzing raw text? Because if you can, you have failed miserably at it.

ok well the irrelevant complaints about BL3 story aside, every single borderlands game has the same grind through the story with bigger numbers, thats how the series works. I dont know how else to address your complaint, youre literally asking for the next game to not be a borderlands game.

The drm complaint is odd as this series doesnt seem to have frame rate problems because of denuvo, but if it bothers you that much find another game because BL4 will obviously have drm like pretty much every game
Junipercat Oct 13, 2024 @ 7:43pm 
The entire series (well main games at least) are about looting and shooting. So grinding and having broken end game is a big part of the series. Yes the formula on this can be tweaked a little (no Slag reliant mechanic again), but that is core about the series since BL1. So if you can't stand that, then seems making it 4 games in seems masochistic of yourself.

As for end game there are raids. BL3 even attempted putting certainly legendaries behind Mayhem levels to give extra challenge. You can play 1 and done if you really want, but that is not what the entire series is built for.

As for story and characters, yes there are many valid grievances about BL3. Their treatment of the prior Vault Hunters, the lore, and writing of the sludge that was Tyreen and filler that was Troy, I find inexcusable.

Hopefully those points get addressed in BL4. But if you don't like to go OP and grind for it (i.e. shoot and loot), then I think you're looking for a completely different game.
kukuhimanpr Oct 13, 2024 @ 9:07pm 
grindfest in any games will be bearable and even very enjoyable if players like the game's gameplay+sfx+vfx design and the characters+world design.

i've played a lot of grindfest games for years. i always try to find and power up characters that resemble my favorite characters from my favorite series. sure, some of them might not be op top tier meta characters, but i've enjoyed the journey and grindfests across those games because i'm accompanied by characters i like.
Prussia Dec 9, 2024 @ 6:39am 
Originally posted by Vanythe:
As much as I love Borderlands 2, I absolutely hated the constant re-grind through main story, completely broken end-game with "bajillion" high numbers and the few weapons that actually had any chance of defeating OP LV 9000 Enemies with quadrillion amount of hp.

Borderlands 3 was the one where I simply didn't care for literally any of the characters, Story was awful, gunplay was mid at best. The DRM was another story.

So, Borderlands 4... Will the issues above be adressed? Or is it gonna be yet another endless grindfest instead of having a set end-game with things to do rather than replaying the same story over and over again just to get the same items with higher numbers? Also, DRM? Denuvo is a no buy, wouldn't install the game even if it was free if it has it.

If they implement this, then yea, it's gonna be bada and my money is staying in my pocket and even if they don't, it still will remain in my wallet.
Prussia Dec 9, 2024 @ 6:40am 
Originally posted by DoDonPachi:
its a looter shooter. You shoot and you loot. Dont like that kind of gameplay? dont play.

It's not about the gameplay, it's about the writing and the drm. No one want a drm in it and no one wants a bad story. But yea, don't like it? Don't play it. I'll do just that, just like everybody else.
lukaself Dec 9, 2024 @ 6:57am 
Huge fan of BL2, yet I waited until they removed Denuvo to buy BL3 at a deep discount. Their loss, not mine, there are literally bazillions of others games to play in the meantime and thanks to rampant abuse, people are getting increasingly immune to FOMO manipulation.

Would be smart to publish this game without any kind of controversial business practices so many AAA finally realized were counter-productive but I'm not holding my breath with the kind of execs they have.
Last edited by lukaself; Dec 9, 2024 @ 7:00am
Prussia Dec 9, 2024 @ 7:05am 
Originally posted by lukaself:
Huge fan of BL2, yet I waited until they removed Denuvo to buy BL3 at a deep discount. Their loss, not mine, there are literally bazillions of others games to play in the meantime and thanks to rampant abuse, people are getting increasingly immune to FOMO manipulation.

Would be smart to publish this game without any kind of controversial business practices so many AAA finally realized were counter-productive but I'm not holding my breath with the kind of execs they have.

I am getting immune to fomo too. Once you see through the illusion it doesn't really work at that point.
Wiesshund Dec 9, 2024 @ 11:53am 
Originally posted by Prussia:
It's not about the gameplay, it's about the writing and the drm. No one want a drm in it and no one wants a bad story. But yea, don't like it? Don't play it. I'll do just that, just like everybody else.

No one want's their game pirated on day 2 either.
lukaself Dec 9, 2024 @ 12:29pm 
Originally posted by Wiesshund:
Originally posted by Prussia:
It's not about the gameplay, it's about the writing and the drm. No one want a drm in it and no one wants a bad story. But yea, don't like it? Don't play it. I'll do just that, just like everybody else.

No one want's their game pirated on day 2 either.
True. Denuvo does not help though. It's more productive making sure your game is the best it could be for your paying customers than to get worked up over something that is inevitable in the digital age. A well-crafted game with excellent gameplay, compelling writing, and a smooth experience for paying customers builds goodwill and loyalty, which DRM measures like Denuvo often erode.
Wiesshund Dec 9, 2024 @ 7:02pm 
2
Originally posted by lukaself:
True. Denuvo does not help though. It's more productive making sure your game is the best it could be for your paying customers than to get worked up over something that is inevitable in the digital age. A well-crafted game with excellent gameplay, compelling writing, and a smooth experience for paying customers builds goodwill and loyalty, which DRM measures like Denuvo often erode.

If i give your game away free, on day two
And it is the Best ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ game on the planet
You wont have a single customer by day 3.
And then, you're ♥♥♥♥♥♥.
Oh people will LOVE your game, but they wont pay you a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ cent for it.

In general people have no good will or loyalty in that aspect.
If i stole your car, and offered to, free with title to 1000 people, 997 people would take your car and no ♥♥♥♥♥ would be given.

Denuvo does help, very few games using it have been cracked in any time frame capable of ruining the developers chance of making some kind of income from the game.
Many, the ones with better implementation of it, have yet to be cracked.
Some did not implement it as well and got cracked but not in any short time span.

And only a couple of games have ever had an issue, which was not caused by Denuvo itself, but by the developer's piss poor implementation of it and not working with Denuvo's people to ensure a proper workable implementation.

Denuvo is a tool, how you implement the tool is up to you.

No game keeps Denuvo forever anyways.
Denuvo is not free, it costs the game's dev/publisher for every month or whatever that it is in use.
Once it has ceased to earn it's keep, it gets removed.
When that is completely depends on sales etc, what ever the company decides is the break point.

Denuvo itself does not erode anything, that is just a mental issue people have adopted.
Many just because someone else told them to.
min3r95 Dec 10, 2024 @ 4:31am 
Originally posted by Wiesshund:
If i give your game away free, on day two
And it is the Best ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ game on the planet
You wont have a single customer by day 3.
And then, you're ♥♥♥♥♥♥.
Oh people will LOVE your game, but they wont pay you a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ cent for it.

In general people have no good will or loyalty in that aspect.
If i stole your car, and offered to, free with title to 1000 people, 997 people would take your car and no ♥♥♥♥♥ would be given.

Denuvo does help, very few games using it have been cracked in any time frame capable of ruining the developers chance of making some kind of income from the game.
Many, the ones with better implementation of it, have yet to be cracked.
Some did not implement it as well and got cracked but not in any short time span.

And only a couple of games have ever had an issue, which was not caused by Denuvo itself, but by the developer's piss poor implementation of it and not working with Denuvo's people to ensure a proper workable implementation.

Denuvo is a tool, how you implement the tool is up to you.

No game keeps Denuvo forever anyways.
Denuvo is not free, it costs the game's dev/publisher for every month or whatever that it is in use.
Once it has ceased to earn it's keep, it gets removed.
When that is completely depends on sales etc, what ever the company decides is the break point.

Denuvo itself does not erode anything, that is just a mental issue people have adopted.
Many just because someone else told them to.
1. The implication that games won't sell without Denuvo , because in reality this isn't the case.

2. Denuvo does erode customers's ability to play the games you paid for without any restrictions, to have reliable, unrestricted access to their games, free from factors that are outside of their control.

3. Not using intrusive DRM doesn't equal giving for free, because it not gonna be FREE on Steam- where people come to buy videogames- it'll have price tag so there's no reason it cannot sell after days 3, especially those who want to support the publishers and/or not wanting to deal with security and other kind of risks, so the publisher isn't gonna be f.

4. The comparison between pirating a videogame and stealing a car is mismatched and misleading.
Piracy is like your car gets stolen but it's still there in the morning.

This isn't a warehouse or a grocery store with limited stocks where if something is stolen, they're gone, this is a digital game store that can generate unlimited copy of games, nothing is stolen here.
1 pirated copy doesn't equal 1 lost sales since there was no payment for that pirated copy.

5. There're ways to play Denuvo implemented games without paying the publishers a cent, for a long time now.

6. Denuvo can 100% cause issues, that is why it needs to be properly implemented in the first place, even you said that yourself.

7. Only some publishers removed Denuvo from their games consistently, unfortunately.
Rebellion, Frontier Laundry, Ubisoft, none of them remove Denuvo from any of their games since they started using it. With Reb and Frontier confirmed they have no intention of removing the cancer.
EA removed it from a total of 8 games, released 2 games that doesn't have Denuvo, the rest of their games still have Denuvo till today(including some indie).
Sega removed it from a total of 3 games, and but haven't it from any of their releases within the last 5 years, LAD still have Denuvo on steam despite it being DRM-FREE on GOG.
There are so many games that still have Denuvo till today, many of them were from the days Denuvo came into existence.

So, yes, many games do keep Denuvo forever.:nmh3sylviapoint:
lukaself Dec 10, 2024 @ 5:26am 
Originally posted by Wiesshund:
Originally posted by lukaself:
True. Denuvo does not help though. It's more productive making sure your game is the best it could be for your paying customers than to get worked up over something that is inevitable in the digital age. A well-crafted game with excellent gameplay, compelling writing, and a smooth experience for paying customers builds goodwill and loyalty, which DRM measures like Denuvo often erode.

If i give your game away free, on day two
And it is the Best ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ game on the planet
You wont have a single customer by day 3.
Let's do a reality check:

Last year's best seller on Steam was Baldur's Gate 3 and had no DRM. It is still selling - even dwarfed the sales of Hogwart's Legacy although it used Denuvo by almost double. 2022 was the year of Elden Ring - no Denuvo there, 2021's most popular title Valheim was DRM-free, 2020 best selling title Hades was DRM-free, as well as Slay the Spire in 2019, Rimworld in 2018, Hollow Knight in 2017, Stardew Valley in 2016, The Witcher 3 in 2015... not a single game with Denuvo ever held that honour of being the top selling title in 10 years of existence - it's almost always a DRM-free game.

Terraria is one of the ten most sold games of all times. It released 13 years ago, has been available DRM-free from the start, sold 60 million copies and actually sells more the longer it goes with a constantly growing playercount.

While it may delay cracking, there is no evidence that Denuvo helps with the sales in any way. On the contrary, people often prefer to pay for games they genuinely enjoy and feel respected by, rather than being treated as potential thieves by default. Even when piracy is easy, many players choose to support developers they trust. Building trust and goodwill has a proven long-term impact on sales—something Ubisoft is currently grappling with as it faces backlash for its heavy-handed DRM practices.

Actually, this first part of the year, 6 out of 10 of Steam's new best sellers have been DRM-free games (source[imgur.com]). It turns out the purchasing habits of consumers have been changing quite a bit these past years.

You're underestimating the value of goodwill and loyalty in this business. It might seem surprising for someone adopting a more cynical perspective, but most people are inherently fair and willing to support what they value. It's easy to focus on negative examples because they often have a bigger emotional impact and more noticeable consequences, but that doesn’t mean they represent the majority. Human nature tends to lean toward fairness when trust is established, especially in a community-driven industry like gaming.

The success of DRM-free games proves that trust, not control, is the foundation of long-term success in the gaming industry. :clickbutton:
Last edited by lukaself; Dec 10, 2024 @ 6:03am
Icheras [Ger] Dec 12, 2024 @ 8:54pm 
trust works only so long as there is enough goodwill.
remember that rimworld had to stop giving out free steam keys when buying the (offical) drm fee version because people started reselling the keys.

furthermore the argument that "best seller" being drm free doesn't mean a lot considering they either sell for 1/2 to 1/6th of your typical deuvo protected game or are long term development projects.
as such why would say EA care that stardew sold the most games in 2016 and 30 million in the 8 years since when they can release a fifa/fc game that sells 10+ million every year for full price... before microtransactions.
end of the day we're talking about the segement in game devs that is small but large enough that they have to worry more about inventor meetings than if anyone still plays their game once it goes sales.

the fact that devs/publishers still pay for denuvo means they estimate their loss to piracy as higher than the pr loss from using denuvo, "denuvo = no purchase" and the actual licence cost.
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Date Posted: Sep 29, 2024 @ 4:10pm
Posts: 18