is arsenal actually a good card?

[Grumpy Old Guy]

I got it some time ago and it seems like every time I use it the detriment to the rest of my gear far outweighs the benefit of another gear slot. Unless its the rogue specifically I just dont find it to be that helpful and it almost seems like it takes way more than 15% of the stats from the items.

[CPT Chthonbeard the Pirate]

The extra stats you can get from the bonus item often you can't get from the stats you lose.

Warrior gets Retaliation which can't be gotten anywhere else.
Rogue gets Magic HP.
Necromancer gets another slot for +summons

[Okhu]

Arsenal is invaluable to me when I play Rogue. Since I use deserts to knock the enemies health down to like -90%

[Ignis]

The wording on arsenal is not quite right, it says "unlock 1 new slot and lower its quality by 15%" but in reality it actually lower ALL gear quality (quality is stats on gears, different from rarity/ color), so it's a bad match for necro who relies heavily on gears with high stats

[Jean]

Yes, people tend to forget you get extra stats on top of that one item on top of the all around penalty. The utility of the amulet and helmet provide the edge for the fighter and rogue, but the shield is a bit of a toss-up, not quite sure if defense and +1 to skellies outweight the lower skellies level. Skellies levels is the only in-class way to scale.

[CPT Chthonbeard the Pirate]

Originally posted by Jean:

Yes, people tend to forget you get extra stats on top of that one item on top of the all around penalty. The utility of the amulet and helmet provide the edge for the fighter and rogue, but the shield is a bit of a toss-up, not quite sure if defense and +1 to skellies outweight the lower skellies level.

Yeah, I'm starting to be swayed on that point myself. Act 4 specifically, if my magic HP gets turned off, having the ancestor's crypt gives me a source of max hp to help me survive until I get my magic HP back. I can get by with one fewer skeletons, and the other stats are better to make up for it.

[!?!]

I mean, is it that hard to see the benefits of free counter damage always forever as a warrior, a shield for rogues or another slot to get +skeletons with?

[CPT Chthonbeard the Pirate]

Originally posted by !?!:

I mean, is it that hard to see the benefits of free counter damage always forever as a warrior, a shield for rogues or another slot to get +skeletons with?

Do you know if retaliation works with vampirism?

[!?!]

Originally posted by CPT Chthonbeard the Pirate:

Do you know if retaliation works with vampirism?

Nope, vampirism only works with attack damage.

[Ignis]

Originally posted by !?!:

I mean, is it that hard to see the benefits of free counter damage always forever as a warrior, a shield for rogues or another slot to get +skeletons with?

Definitely not for necro, +1 max is very rare even without arsenal already, and if it's +1 max / + level or +1 max/ +quality then it's even rarer. Also with arsenal adding the shield to loot pool, now instead of 1/4 chance of loot being a (might be better) book, now it's 1/5 chance, on top of the stat reduction for ALL gears (ex: lv20 grey book's stat with arsenal is only about as much as a lv18 or even lv15 grey book's stat without arsenal)

[CPT Chthonbeard the Pirate]

Originally posted by !?!:

Originally posted by CPT Chthonbeard the Pirate:

Do you know if retaliation works with vampirism?

Nope, vampirism only works with attack damage.

It also works with magic damage, but not damage to all.

I've done the math. It's the only way the numbers work on that.

[jarsdeux]

getting the shield on necro makes it feel less RNG since you have that many more chances to pull the right combination on the item. plus it's the only way you get any sort of defense

[Ignis]

Originally posted by jarsdeux:

getting the shield on necro makes it feel less RNG since you have that many more chances to pull the right combination on the item. plus it's the only way you get any sort of defense

Defense does not affect magic hp (correct me if I'm wrong about this), look at rouge, he doesn't have any defense, and rely on magic hp just fine. And no, it doesn't make less rng, if anything it make more rng. Why? 1st is the shield main stat: defense, it doesn't help necro kill thing faster, nor does it help magic hp. Next is what stat can the shield roll? It can rolls defense (yes, it can rolls double defense), regen, ske level or quality, +1 max, attack speed. Now compare that to the necklace or book (which has magic hp or level as its main stat), on top of your overall lower stat on ALL gears. If you don't believe it, just run 2 runs (1 with, 1 without arsenal), and tell me if you ever see anything like +1 max ske/ 28% summon quality on the same ring in arsenal run; with arsenal the summon quality is 18% on 1 gear at max, and also compare the skeleton level of same level books on different run.

[jarsdeux]

yeah it reduces the level and that's bad, but it doesn't reduce +max skeletons AT ALL because it's a binary stat. so your second most important stat is completely unaffected by the armory penalty. having that 5th slot to stick +max skeletons on also makes it easier to use the gray items with their huge +to level stats. quality is nice and all, but level and max skeletons are more important

[Zeon]

Its a great card IF used on the last loop before the boss to get some extra stats

[Juicy Beefcake]

Originally posted by jarsdeux:

yeah it reduces the level and that's bad, but it doesn't reduce +max skeletons AT ALL because it's a binary stat. so your second most important stat is completely unaffected by the armory penalty. having that 5th slot to stick +max skeletons on also makes it easier to use the gray items with their huge +to level stats. quality is nice and all, but level and max skeletons are more important

+max skeletons isn't the necromancer's second most important stat though.
Necromancer wants bonus skeleton level above all else, then attack speed. All other stats are a luxury that you can take only if the item is also an upgrade to skele level.
You can get attack speed from dropping forests/thickets and can largely ignore it on gear past loop 4 or 5. IMO summon quality and +max skeletons are traps.
You should get the level up perk that gives + 1 max and then you can get another +1 on your amulet. Your book and both rings need to be dedicated to keeping skeleton level as high above the current loop count as possible.