Heavy armor needs a buff

[zmanbuilder]

As other than looks there is no reason to use it, a way to get the best medium armor is to use the leto mk 2 helmet and gloves with the night stalker jacket and pants, you get more armor than any heavy set but at the weight of a medium set.

you can min max it further but i kept it simple as both of those armor sets are super easy to get, over 10 points more armor than the bruiser set for 10 less weight....

[Malidictus]

Originally posted by zmanbuilder:

Ultra heavy armor is fine, but by combining ultra heavy with medium armor you get a better heavy armor, the leto mk 2 helmet and leto mk 2 gauntlets with the night stalker jacket and night stalker pants will get you 124 armor at exactly 50 weight, and that number is better than any full heavy set.

This calculation makes no sense to me. Full Leto is 168 armour. How is 124 better? The 50 weight really isn't a huge draw. Leto MK1 and MK2 are trivial to make usable without taking a performance hit. Let's Amulet is the easiest approach, but it's also the worst as it reduces weight more than necessary without adding anything else of substance. The Rusted Navigator's Pendant is a better option as it adds health and stamina, thus improving EHP.

The Twisted Idol is by far the best option. Not only does it offer the same -15 weight (enough to make Leto MK2 into Heavy Encumberance), but it also grants 30% armour effectiveness. With that and Fortify, my build is sitting on 430 armour. Not quite 70% damage resistance (68.3), but more than enough.

Yes, it's heavy weight vs. medium, but that absolutely does not matter. The difference is just about academic. The heavy dodge is only slightly slower than the medium and the iframes difference is 1. I see no reason to take a hit to armour over that.

[zmanbuilder]

Originally posted by Malidictus:

Originally posted by zmanbuilder:

Ultra heavy armor is fine, but by combining ultra heavy with medium armor you get a better heavy armor, the leto mk 2 helmet and leto mk 2 gauntlets with the night stalker jacket and night stalker pants will get you 124 armor at exactly 50 weight, and that number is better than any full heavy set.

This calculation makes no sense to me. Full Leto is 168 armour. How is 124 better? The 50 weight really isn't a huge draw. Leto MK1 and MK2 are trivial to make usable without taking a performance hit. Let's Amulet is the easiest approach, but it's also the worst as it reduces weight more than necessary without adding anything else of substance. The Rusted Navigator's Pendant is a better option as it adds health and stamina, thus improving EHP.

The Twisted Idol is by far the best option. Not only does it offer the same -15 weight (enough to make Leto MK2 into Heavy Encumberance), but it also grants 30% armour effectiveness. With that and Fortify, my build is sitting on 430 armour. Not quite 70% damage resistance (68.3), but more than enough.

Yes, it's heavy weight vs. medium, but that absolutely does not matter. The difference is just about academic. The heavy dodge is only slightly slower than the medium and the iframes difference is 1. I see no reason to take a hit to armour over that.

Leto is not heavy, it is ultra heavy, heavy sets include bruiser, fae royal, technician etc.

[Lowbei]

armor is quite effective. the last boss on apocalypse hit me for less than 33% with its melee swings.

[Malidictus]

Originally posted by zmanbuilder:

Leto is not heavy, it is ultra heavy, heavy sets include bruiser, fae royal, technician etc.

So... what exactly is your example here? That you can mix armour pieces from multiple sets and get better stats than a full set? If so, then I assumed that went without saying. That's how most of these games work. I'd do the same if it didn't look ugly as sin.

Let me put it this way - I would judge your armour category not by what armour you're wearing, but rather what category you're using. At "exactly 50 encumbrance", you're wearing medium armour, even if it's comprised of pieces from medium and heavy armour. You can get far more armour if you min/max for 75, since the difference in utility is predominantly academic. At least it has been in my experience.

[Atma]

Originally posted by Your Average Joe:

- armor effectiveness 180% ( 100% + 30% + 50% = 180% )

Where are you getting these calculations from?

You seem to be basing a lot of this off of these percentages stacking additively when devs have been very clear that these have always worked multiplicatively (but were incorrectly show as additive in the menu up until the last big patch).

Are you pulling these calculations from somewhere official?

I'm not saying you're incorrect, it looks like you're pulling these from looking at the code itself, I was just curious where you got them.

[zmanbuilder]

Originally posted by Malidictus:

Originally posted by zmanbuilder:

Leto is not heavy, it is ultra heavy, heavy sets include bruiser, fae royal, technician etc.

So... what exactly is your example here? That you can mix armour pieces from multiple sets and get better stats than a full set? If so, then I assumed that went without saying. That's how most of these games work. I'd do the same if it didn't look ugly as sin.

Let me put it this way - I would judge your armour category not by what armour you're wearing, but rather what category you're using. At "exactly 50 encumbrance", you're wearing medium armour, even if it's comprised of pieces from medium and heavy armour. You can get far more armour if you min/max for 75, since the difference in utility is predominantly academic. At least it has been in my experience.

By mixing medium with ultra heavy it removes any reason to go for a heavy set, rather than always nerf stuff i would rather them just make heavy a bit better so you have more reason to use it, if you are going for 75 weight then you are just one amulet away while using the full leto set, or just use the bright steel ring and ignore weight altogether.

[adobo]

Originally posted by Atma:

Where are you getting these calculations from?

You seem to be basing a lot of this off of these percentages stacking additively when devs have been very clear that these have always worked multiplicatively (but were incorrectly show as additive in the menu up until the last big patch).

Are you pulling these calculations from somewhere official?

I'm not saying you're incorrect, it looks like you're pulling these from looking at the code itself, I was just curious where you got them.

It's engineer trait and twisted idol amulet. It specifically says "armor effectiveness".

[Atma]

Originally posted by majikero:

Originally posted by Atma:

Where are you getting these calculations from?

You seem to be basing a lot of this off of these percentages stacking additively when devs have been very clear that these have always worked multiplicatively (but were incorrectly show as additive in the menu up until the last big patch).

Are you pulling these calculations from somewhere official?

I'm not saying you're incorrect, it looks like you're pulling these from looking at the code itself, I was just curious where you got them.

It's engineer trait and twisted idol amulet. It specifically says "armor effectiveness".

I meant the actual calculations that he posted. It's an interesting change if it's true.

[Malidictus]

Originally posted by zmanbuilder:

By mixing medium with ultra heavy it removes any reason to go for a heavy set, rather than always nerf stuff i would rather them just make heavy a bit better so you have more reason to use it, if you are going for 75 weight then you are just one amulet away while using the full leto set, or just use the bright steel ring and ignore weight altogether.

OK, but then what do you do with Leto's set? Challenger's already not that far behind at 110 vs. 168. A single amulet or a single ring is still a cost that Challenger doesn't need to pay. Maybe if they ever reintroduce set bonuses?

[Xamikaze]

Guys, reading comprehension please! OP complains that there is no point using heavy armour because you can get way better DR results with a mix of Medium and Ultra Heavy. Making heavy armour pointless.

For instance, the Labyrinth set now gives the player the same armour value as the Fae set. Yet the former is medium weight while the latter is heavy weight, so why would anyone go for Fae if you can get just as much mitigation while not suffering from the same dodge and stamina penalties.

What OP wants is an incentive to use heavy armour sets other than how it looks, because by using a heavy set, in the current state of the game, you are gimping your character.

[Your Average Joe]

Originally posted by Atma:

Where are you getting these calculations from?

You seem to be basing a lot of this off of these percentages stacking additively when devs have been very clear that these have always worked multiplicatively (but were incorrectly show as additive in the menu up until the last big patch).

Are you pulling these calculations from somewhere official?

I'm not saying you're incorrect, it looks like you're pulling these from looking at the code itself, I was just curious where you got them.

Trial and error, and dumb luck to be honest. I simply tried multiple formulas with multiple armor values inputs and then compared the results with the tooltip.

And this is the formula that just fits:

Originally posted by Your Average Joe:

acronyms:
AMR -> base armor value
AMR_EFF -> armor effectiveness
AMR_DR -> armor damage reduction

formula pre-patch:
AMR_DR -> ( AMR * AMR_EFF ) / ( 200 / AMR_EFF + AMR * AMR_EFF )

formula post-patch:
AMR_DR -> ( AMR * AMR_EFF ) / ( 200 + AMR * AMR_EFF )

You don't have to take my word for it, try the calculations yourself. In fact, I encourage you to try it. Peer review this, and if you find inconsistencies then tell me so that I can correct it.

And the part where the "multiplicative and not additive" is simply a misunderstanding, not that I blame you because this is quite technical.

It is Non-Armor DR ( rings, amulets, traits that give +X% DR ) and Armor DR that stack multiplicatively. The formula here is to calculate Armor DR itself, so what the Devs were addressing has nothing to do with this.

[Your Average Joe]

Originally posted by Xamikaze:

Guys, reading comprehension please! OP complains that there is no point using heavy armour because you can get way better DR results with a mix of Medium and Ultra Heavy. Making heavy armour pointless.

For instance, the Labyrinth set now gives the player the same armour value as the Fae set. Yet the former is medium weight while the latter is heavy weight, so why would anyone go for Fae if you can get just as much mitigation while not suffering from the same dodge and stamina penalties.

But armor also provides elemental/blight resistance, which must also be factored in when evaluating an armor's value, which will then in turn decide the encumbrance of the armor piece.

If you focus on maximizing armor value and minimizing encumbrance, the setup you end up with may have a higher armor value than other setups with the same encumbrance, but it's highly likely that your elemental/blight resistances end up being much lower.

And the reason for my original post is that due to the nature of how Armor DR is calculated, the difference of DR provided at high armor values varies only slightly. So even if you can milk that extra 10 points of armor from mix-matching, the increase in DR when you already have 60% of 70% Armor DR will be so insignificant that most people wouldn't even care. But this line of argument will only be valid if armor effectiveness is reverted to the way it used to function pre-patch.

As for encumbrance, it is already possible to achieve 70% Armor DR whilst remaining in the light weight category under pre-patch conditions, as is demonstrated in my second post. So any extra points of encumbrance you can save from mix-matching wouldn't matter that much. But again, this line of argument will only be valid if armor effectiveness is reverted to the way it used to function pre-patch.

[Neyreyan_Youtube]

Originally posted by Kappa:

Heavy armor require a nerf, if any.

They are currently the most used armor set because the ridiculous amount of Dr compared to any other armor.

Also, there's literally no trade off, as players can just equip a mere steel ring an 10 points in recovery ( which is currently outrageous in terms of power).

in other words, the game is not balanced because of a single ring, they could remove the ring