Heavy armor needs a buff

[zmanbuilder]

As other than looks there is no reason to use it, a way to get the best medium armor is to use the leto mk 2 helmet and gloves with the night stalker jacket and pants, you get more armor than any heavy set but at the weight of a medium set.

you can min max it further but i kept it simple as both of those armor sets are super easy to get, over 10 points more armor than the bruiser set for 10 less weight....

[LegoFrog]

dose the challenger help at all with the armor weighing less?

[zmanbuilder]

No investment in challenger needed, not a single point in its trait needed at all for the night stalker leto mk 2 combo set.

[Velmoria]

Leto mk1 & 2 able reach about 70% armor DR when stacked with lv10 Fortify & Twisted Idol.
With 30% damage taken, it only need reduce 1/3 of it to reach total 80% DR. Meaning only need 33.33% DR which achievable with Barkskin & x5 Bulwark.
Also weight is at heavy (Mk1 only if has Strong Back trait).

[zmanbuilder]

Originally posted by Velmoria:

Leto mk1 & 2 able reach about 70% armor DR when stacked with lv10 Fortify & Twisted Idol.
With 30% damage taken, it only need reduce 1/3 of it to reach total 80% DR. Meaning only need 33.33% DR which achievable with Barkskin & x5 Bulwark.
Also weight is at heavy (Mk1 only if has Strong Back trait).

Ultra heavy armor is fine, but by combining ultra heavy with medium armor you get a better heavy armor, the leto mk 2 helmet and leto mk 2 gauntlets with the night stalker jacket and night stalker pants will get you 124 armor at exactly 50 weight, and that number is better than any full heavy set.

[Kappa]

Heavy armor require a nerf, if any.

They are currently the most used armor set because the ridiculous amount of Dr compared to any other armor.

Also, there's literally no trade off, as players can just equip a mere steel ring an 10 points in recovery ( which is currently outrageous in terms of power).

[zmanbuilder]

Originally posted by Kappa:

Heavy armor require a nerf, if any.

They are currently the most used armor set because the ridiculous amount of Dr compared to any other armor.

Also, there's literally no trade off, as players can just equip a mere steel ring an 10 points in recovery ( which is currently outrageous in terms of power).

Do not confuse heavy with ultra heavy

[Kappa]

Originally posted by zmanbuilder:

Originally posted by Kappa:

Heavy armor require a nerf, if any.

They are currently the most used armor set because the ridiculous amount of Dr compared to any other armor.

Also, there's literally no trade off, as players can just equip a mere steel ring an 10 points in recovery ( which is currently outrageous in terms of power).

Do not confuse heavy with ultra heavy

Heavy ones do still benefit from the same things as ultra heavy.

1) recovery patch up the whole stamina regen part, making the 50% on recovery useless.

2) steel ring invalidates encumbrance, giving the fastest roll regardless the weight ( so, rather than investing 10 trait points, and at least 2/3 encumbrance items to hit light weight, it's just one ring).

Obviously, this is even more outrageous if you use ultra heavy ones ( afaik, there's no point in using heavy over ultra heavy), but heavy ones benefit from this poor balance too.

[zmanbuilder]

Originally posted by Kappa:

Originally posted by zmanbuilder:

Do not confuse heavy with ultra heavy

Heavy ones do still benefit from the same things as ultra heavy.

1) recovery patch up the whole stamina regen part, making the 50% on recovery useless.

2) steel ring invalidates encumbrance, giving the fastest roll regardless the weight ( so, rather than investing 10 trait points, and at least 2/3 encumbrance items to hit light weight, it's just one ring).

Obviously, this is even more outrageous if you use ultra heavy ones ( afaik, there's no point in using heavy over ultra heavy), but heavy ones benefit from this poor balance too.

I agree that there is no reason to use heavy as you can get more armor just by mixing medium with ultra heavy and still stay in the medium wight range.

Ultra heavy has a cost of a ring slot or more. personally i like using the broken watch and the dodge ring as that takes care of all your stamina issues and lets you light roll and still invest in other traits.

[Kappa]

Originally posted by zmanbuilder:

Originally posted by Kappa:

Heavy ones do still benefit from the same things as ultra heavy.

1) recovery patch up the whole stamina regen part, making the 50% on recovery useless.

2) steel ring invalidates encumbrance, giving the fastest roll regardless the weight ( so, rather than investing 10 trait points, and at least 2/3 encumbrance items to hit light weight, it's just one ring).

Obviously, this is even more outrageous if you use ultra heavy ones ( afaik, there's no point in using heavy over ultra heavy), but heavy ones benefit from this poor balance too.

I agree that there is no reason to use heavy as you can get more armor just by mixing medium with ultra heavy and still stay in the medium wight range.

Ultra heavy has a cost of a ring slot or more. personally i like using the broken watch and the dodge ring as that takes care of all your stamina issues and lets you light roll and still invest in other traits.

The point is that's it's not a cost at all.

Consider how would it take to hit light weight roll by reducing weight through:

- traits
- amulet
- rings
- consumables

And then compare it with 1 steel ring slot and 10 points in recovery.

Probably the best way to fix this no skill habit would be to reduce by 1/2 recovery, making it harder for heavy/ultra armor users to deal with stamina, sucking up more equipment slots.

I'd also be fine if steel ring would be removed or tweaked ( like "reduce the roll degree by 1 step").

This way we'll achieve both nerfing tanks as well as pushing players towards light/medium armors.

Ps: they can't do it anymore, but would have been cool to have just aesthetic armors, with characters with a flat Dr regardless the armor skin.

[Your Average Joe]

For those who don't know, armor was shadow nerfed last patch.

Armor effectiveness now only increases armor value, and no longer reduces the divisor in the Armor DR calculation. As a result, armor DR has dropped about 10% on average for builds that utilizes Twisted Idol or Fortify, even with the so called "buff" on armor that came with that patch.

Below are the details of the formula change:

acronyms:
AMR -> base armor value
AMR_EFF -> armor effectiveness
AMR_DR -> armor damage reduction

formula pre-patch:
AMR_DR -> ( AMR * AMR_EFF ) / ( 200 / AMR_EFF + AMR * AMR_EFF )

formula post-patch:
AMR_DR -> ( AMR * AMR_EFF ) / ( 200 + AMR * AMR_EFF )

[zmanbuilder]

Originally posted by Your Average Joe:

For those who don't know, armor was shadow nerfed last patch.

Armor effectiveness now only increases armor value, and no longer reduces the divisor in the Armor DR calculation. As a result, armor DR has dropped about 10% on average for builds that utilizes Twisted Idol or Fortify, even with the so called "buff" on armor that came with that patch.

Below are the details of the formula change:

acronyms:
AMR -> base armor value
AMR_EFF -> armor effectiveness
AMR_DR -> armor damage reduction

formula pre-patch:
AMR_DR -> ( AMR * AMR_EFF ) / ( 200 / AMR_EFF + AMR * AMR_EFF )

formula post-patch:
AMR_DR -> ( AMR * AMR_EFF ) / ( 200 + AMR * AMR_EFF )

What? I made the post because i liked running around in the fae royal set but found out the archon set has higher armor, then with testing i found that mixing medium with ultra heavy armor gave a higher armor number than any full heavy set without the heavy roll.

I could stop being a min-max andy but those numbers i see irk me as my whole first build was based on making heavy armor medium weight through the strong back trait.

I do not really understand this technical stuff you said But i have always ran fortify on my builds, in my stats i get about 50% armor dr with mixing medium with ultra heavy and about 45% armor dr from just a heavy set, both with fortify.

[Your Average Joe]

Originally posted by zmanbuilder:

What? I made the post because i liked running around in the fae royal set but found out the archon set has higher armor, then with testing i found that mixing medium with ultra heavy armor gave a higher armor number than any full heavy set without the heavy roll.

I could stop being a min-max andy but those numbers i see irk me as my whole first build was based on making heavy armor medium weight through the strong back trait.

I do not really understand this technical stuff you said But i have always ran fortify on my builds, in my stats i get about 50% armor dr with mixing medium with ultra heavy and about 45% armor dr from just a heavy set, both with fortify.

Just to give you an solid idea on the difference between pre-patch and post-patch, here is an example based on a build I used to run:

- full fae royal armor set ( armor value 107, encumbrance 55 )
- root extract [ potion ] ( +30 armor value )
- twisted idol [ amulet ] ( +30% armor effectiveness, -15 encumbrance )
- fortify [ trait ] ( +50% armor effectiveness )
- strong back [ trait ] ( -10 encumbrance )
- fae protector signet [ ring ] ( -5 encumbrance, +10 health, +10 stamina )

this will yield the following attributes:

- base armor 137 ( 107 + 30 = 137 )
- armor effectiveness 180% ( 100% + 30% + 50% = 180% )
- encumbrance 25 (light weight) ( 55 - 15 - 10 - 5 = 25 )

the Armor DR of this setup pre-patch:
( 137 * 180% ) / ( 200 / 180% + 137 * 180% ) = 68.9%

the Armor DR of this setup post-patch:
( 137 * 180% ) / ( 200 + 137 * 180% ) = 55.2%

As you can see, the difference is significant ( 13.7% ). As for the build you mentioned, assuming the 50% and 45% Armor DR are post-patch numbers, then the same build could've reached somewhere like 65% and 55% Armor DR pre-patch.

Sharing this information and showing you this example is to demonstrate that Armor DR was in a pretty good place pre-patch, and armor feeling lackluster now could simply be due to the aforementioned change in Armor DR calculation. So, a buff might not be needed in this case, for reverting back to how armor used to function pre-patch might just be enough.

[Kappa]

A character can easily go past 80% DR ( ( I know the cap is 80%. It was just to say you can still go past if you build for it) even now though.

It requires some investment, but it's doable.

[Postman Pat]

Originally posted by Kappa:

A character can easily go past 80% DR ( ( I know the cap is 80%. It was just to say you can still go past if you build for it) even now though.

It requires some investment, but it's doable.

And you will still get one hit by Vicious Nightweaver's blueball+lunge attack in Apoc, so what exactly is the point of wearing all that armor, anyway?

[Kappa]

Originally posted by Postman Pat:

Originally posted by Kappa:

A character can easily go past 80% DR ( ( I know the cap is 80%. It was just to say you can still go past if you build for it) even now though.

It requires some investment, but it's doable.

And you will still get one hit by Vicious Nightweaver's blueball+lunge attack in Apoc, so what exactly is the point of wearing all that armor, anyway?

Game got nerfed to the point you get oneshotted only by a very limited pool of attacks.

Those who can properly play, can dodge all attacks during the whole fights, but for those who can't ( whether it's skill issue or not enough time to properly learn the boss ), armor comes to help by making killing blows only a limited number of attacks.

Currently, as you also mentioned, there's just one nightweaver attack ( actually, the one you mentioned is not a single one but 2 attacks in 1 ) that might oneshot players ( consider using a health flask, and a +15% hp rune. Maybe you'll be able to survive even that attack ), and it's not even granted ( because neither vicious nor spiteful/skullcracker are granted ).

To me, they shouldn't have nerfed boss afflixes, because in the last difficulty it has to be expected that the player knows the boss and can manage to dodge all instant kill attacks for the length of the fight. But now mistakes are allowed on all bosses, though a few of them still has a chance ( because hitting vicious/spiteful or, eventually, skullcracker, is still a chance ) to get a dmg boost that gives them one attack that "might" ( see the health part above ) oneshot players.