RIP Twisting Wounds

[Hagamus Maximus]

DEAR DEVS,

A lot of folks are unhappy about the recent NERFS to this game, and sadly, I am one of them. Here is a great example of why extreme care has to be given to nerfing items in a single player game like this. I do understand bringing weapons/mods/etc in line that are broken, but hear me out, as that's just not the case with my experience below.

I just went through several iterations of Losomn to try and get the Twisting Wounds mutator for my new character (mutators modify weapon behaviour, for those who don't know). It's a very difficult mutator to get due to the grinding needed to find it, so when you finally get it, there is a point where you feel very relieved and happy at the same time. That's not what happened this time, however.

Sadly, and to my surprise, Twisting Wounds is now less than half as strong as it was before the recent patch. Previously, it gave a 20% buff to damage and 150 bleed damage over 10 seconds when maxed (and it takes a long time to grind all of those corrupted crystals to max it out, in addition to the time finding the thing). NOW, it gives a 10% buff to damage and 150 bleed damage over 20 seconds when maxed (or 75 damage per every 10 seconds, which is half). This is a massive NERF and I cannot see any reason to use it at this point, as there are just so many better options. When I looked back to try and find a reason for this change, I found that instead of it being listed as a NERF, it was listed as a BUFF. The combination of finding a beloved and very difficult item to get and then noticing that it's nerfed to death was disheartening. However, seeing the devs try and count it as a buff, that's just not OK with me.

Lastly, this item (while very widely used) wasn't that much stronger than any of the other strong items of the same type. I know this from personal experience, I have tried several other builds. It just seemed extremely unnecessary and killed the excitement that I had for the game.

Probably the most difficult part of this is that I love this game. I have more time in this game than literally any other (just recently surpassed Dark Souls 3 on my Steam most played list). I am seriously considering playing something else, which sucks. Will I be as excited for the next game from this dev? Probably not, and that's the reality. That is why nerfing items in a single player game has to be done very, very carefully.

H

**minor edits for grammar

[Neyreyan_Youtube]

This was one of my main concerns about the game even before it was released. The grinding aspect is more exagerated than in remnant 1 so geting a good thing(gun, mutator, trinket,skill) should feel rewarding.
The nerfhammer patch was needed but i dont understand why it was not done from the begining?
The game suffered from a dark souls complex and everyone from the industry likes to call this dark souls with guns wich is clearly not the case.
The patch had a very bad effect, it destroyed hundreads of semi-dps builds and now players are mostly forced to play cookie cutter dps builds like hugs.
Why? For example, many of my builds were based on certain interactions that made no sense but worked on apocalypse because of some op items like twisting wounds wich gave my builds enough dps.
Now, i think most of my fun builds are not working.
Its also a problem because builds are extremly limited on all difficulties.
We only have dodge and damage as mechanics now.
You cant use tanky builds anymore, shield builds dont work, summons are buggy, misty step is not worth it, speed builds have no chance, heavy armor is not good, charge weapons are not good becauase of crit nerfs, mods builds are too limited etc.

I am not saying the game is not fun anymore but it definetly lost its charm. Farm 5 hours for an item i dont need but i just want to finish my collection of items. All items should be viable

[Grimzy]

Originally posted by Neyreyan_Youtube:

The nerfhammer patch was needed but i dont understand why it was not done from the begining?

The devs have been very adamant since the beginning about balancing things, this is nothing new.
Certain things were changed to balance them out and based on player feedback.
They have been very clear that with DLC2 there would a a huge balancing patch.
A lot of items need re-balancing whenever something new comes out like archetypes, mutators, enemies, weapons. A lot of items, if they were not changed, would have been EXTREMELY and i mean EXTREMELY busted with invoker.

Originally posted by Neyreyan_Youtube:

I am not saying the game is not fun anymore but it definetly lost its charm. Farm 5 hours for an item i dont need but i just want to finish my collection of items. All items should be viable

All items are perfectly viable. Granted some are more than others, but you can many any build and it can clear the game even on apoc.

Originally posted by Neyreyan_Youtube:

The patch had a very bad effect, it destroyed hundreads of semi-dps builds and now players are mostly forced to play cookie cutter dps builds like hugs.

Completely not true. I have not touched a HUGS build since DLC1. There are actually builds much better than HUGS. This patch actually created quite a bit of more new builds which melt things before you can even fire a gun.

Originally posted by Neyreyan_Youtube:

You cant use tanky builds anymore, shield builds dont work, summons are buggy, misty step is not worth it, speed builds have no chance, heavy armor is not good, charge weapons are not good becauase of crit nerfs, mods builds are too limited etc.

THere are dozens of tanky builds out there after DLC2. And a lot of the things you mentioned still have use and merit, you just need to adapt. Heavy armor was never good to begin with, and only those with difficulty dodging had merit in it.
I have a essentially endless shield build that never gets depleted, I have a summoner build that melts even bosses (granted the AI leaves a lot to wish for but its not as bad as you make it out to be)
If you use the right items, you can still crit nearly always so the nerf to crit rate did not do much, plus its kinda worthless on builds that dont rely on guns.

A lot of players seem to follow this weird notion thinkign guns are what matters while....they do not.

[Koumori]

I reckon Twisting Wounds remains as one of the best firearm mutators. I'd still be using it if I hadn't switched to Searing Wounds, which is effectively identical in most ways.

[Grimzy]

Originally posted by Koumori:

I reckon Twisting Wounds remains as one of the best firearm mutators. I'd still be using it if I hadn't switched to Searing Wounds, which is effectively identical in most ways.

it still is, but usage largely depends on what you want to achieve. For example it would be very pointless for certain builds to pair a bleed weapon with a bleed mutator.

[GATO SWING BATA-BATA]

Still does me justice. TW on rupture cannon with abrasive rounds (or chains, depending on my mood) with a fetid-equipped Merc (or sparky, or now thorn). Again, mood. Besides, I don't mind the ever-so slight nerf. Especially, because I don't do tanky builds, it's nice to test and develop my timing and evasive skills with a slightly longer battle. Oh, and spectral with Shocker (default), or Vampire (for full bloodsucker mode).

[Hagamus Maximus]

Thanks for all of the input. I definitely agree that TW can still be used, I just would not choose to use it given it's post-NERF state. Also, TW is the only mutator that adds bleed to ranged damage, so there just aren't any other choices like it.

My main issues were that:

#1 the devs listed TW as a BUFF instead of a NERF. I looked into it before farming as I knew the patch had come out, and nowhere does it list that the damage had been halved. I even went as far as to read a recent reddit conversation between the dev who worked on the buffs/nerfs (Tragic) which included discussions with several gamers who had complaints about the patch. He listed TW as being buffed so I figured I was good to go.

And just to clear the air, Tragic is a phenomenal dev. I have given positive feedback regarding his work many times. I just think he made an error with this particular issue.

#2 The NERF did not need to cut the damage in half. Maybe reduce it by a reasonable amount, like 10-15% or something like that. Cutting damage in half, in my mind, is a shock to the system when you spend several hours farming for it. It's not like it was broken or much stronger than the other mutators in it's original state.

I also agree that the game is still lots of fun. This was just a thing that happened to me that made me very salty, and I wanted to share it with the devs so that they are aware of another gamer that was negatively affected by the above issues, and specifically that TW was listed as BUFFED when it was actually a NERFED (this is not the only instance of that with the current patch, unfortunately). I also get it that it takes a lot of time to balance games, so I expect a margin for error, but when there are several errors, I think it needs to be brought to light so hopefully the devs will be more careful in future. NERFS aren't terrible by nature, but in my mind, a lot of times devs don't realize the impact they have on gamers. IMO, they have to be handled very carefully, which was one of the main points of my post.

[Skeleton]

The power of Twisting Wounds has never been its raw bleed damage. It's that it enables a set of extremely powerful accessories and perks which trigger against bleeding enemies.

So yes, in the full context of a bleed build a duration increase is a buff.

As for the damage bonus percentage, consider it adjusted to account for the addition of those aforementioned accessories and perks, many of which didn't exist (i.e. added in The Woke King) when Twisted Wounds had its stats set (i.e. at launch).

[Hagamus Maximus]

Respectfully, while I understand that bleed duration is important in build dynamics, the Twisting Wounds mod was NERFED, not BUFFED. The duration was increased, sure, but the total damage was NERFED in two ways. Previously, it gave a 20% buff to damage and 150 bleed damage over 10 seconds when maxed. NOW, it gives a 10% buff to damage (HALF) and 150 bleed damage over 20 seconds when maxed (or 75 damage per every 10 seconds, which is half). This is a massive 50% NERF any way you look at it. If it was listed as a NERF and the specifics were given, I wouldn't have spent the time grinding for it.

After letting the saltiness wear off a bit, I decided to give the game another chance and have been playing it for 15+ hours post-patch to see overall how the game feels overall. My overall, and I believe objective impression, is that in all ways that are meaningful to my builds, there were significantly more NERFS than BUFFS. I have found at least 15-20 instances of mods, weapons, and mutators (amulets and rings not as much) that were much stronger pre-patch, and several items that were previously vital to builds I had used in past that pretty much ruined them.

I REALLY wish this was not the case, as I truly love this game, and the last thing I want to do is come on this board and post negative comments. The developers are a very dedicated bunch that overall do a great job with this game. I just think they made a huge mistake with this patch.

Overall, the patch changes that I've noticed just feel bad to me and I truly see no reason to be this heavy handed with NERFS in a single player game like this. Just my opinion, ofc.

[Rod, of eight toes]

There's no convincing people who think they understand item synergy in the game better than the devs do.

[tragic]

Originally posted by Neyreyan_Youtube:

You cant use tanky builds anymore, shield builds dont work, summons are buggy, misty step is not worth it, speed builds have no chance, heavy armor is not good, charge weapons are not good becauase of crit nerfs, mods builds are too limited etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVjI7TXgjIE

Neyreyan, do you just see every new post as an opportunity to bring your negativity into it? Tank builds are stronger than they have ever been. Shield builds are incredibly powerful. Heavy Armor is easily the best bang for its buck. Mist Step is better than ever. Seriously. Why jump into every post with such uninformed negativity?

[Robin (Don Quijote)]

I have never stopped using twiting wounds. Combine it with invoker, alchemist, magnifying glass and all the rings that increase damage and status effect duration and BOOM

[LaughingMute]

Originally posted by tragic:

Originally posted by Neyreyan_Youtube:

You cant use tanky builds anymore, shield builds dont work, summons are buggy, misty step is not worth it, speed builds have no chance, heavy armor is not good, charge weapons are not good becauase of crit nerfs, mods builds are too limited etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVjI7TXgjIE

Neyreyan, do you just see every new post as an opportunity to bring your negativity into it? Tank builds are stronger than they have ever been. Shield builds are incredibly powerful. Heavy Armor is easily the best bang for its buck. Mist Step is better than ever. Seriously. Why jump into every post with such uninformed negativity?

Its because this individual like so many others don't realize they were being pigeon holed into using the very same limited number of meta items to make every single one of their builds work. Then to cap it off they lack creativity and the willingness to explore ways of playing.

Even I was for a brief moment annoyed that Lifeless Heart had its heal removed. Thought well there is a useless relic no one will use. Guess what I still use it because it was in the end the best relic for what I need a relic to do.

I like so many others are extremely happy with the changes that were made and the road spread wide open for more diverse builds to be viable. Thank you very much for your hardwork Tragic.

[Sparky862]

I just use Twisting Wounds on my Merciless.....Double the bleed

[delikatessss]

Originally posted by Robin (Monster of the week):

I have never stopped using twiting wounds. Combine it with invoker, alchemist, magnifying glass and all the rings that increase damage and status effect duration and BOOM

Good luck in DLC2

[delikatessss]

These phenomenal developers screw up CONSTANTLY
And every time it only gets better. I don't understand why people praise them.
I am a person who looks at things as they appear and I see that the mind has left many players, as well as developers