enemy scaling still broken?

[Konma]

haven't played in a while, did they fix the ♥♥♥♥ where upgrading your guns gave enemies more health and basically made upgrading pointless

[bladeddragonknight]

Originally posted by Mononymouse:

Originally posted by VinVizer:

If the system is entirely pointless, then just play the game without upgrading your weapons.

But, the enemy scaling and the weapon scaling are not the same.

Yes, the enemy does get stronger when a player upgrade their weapons, but it is still a net positive in favor of the player.

The fact that the Entire RPG portion of the game, is invalidated, makes it Marketing fraud, which they need to fix immediately, or remove RPG from their tags.

this isn't just a simple mistake, they willfully lured people to a product, without delivering what was promised, so far as to invalidate the RPG mechanics in the back end, so the players wouldn't notice.

a level 1 player, deals percentage damage more, than a level 20 player with the same equipment.

The level 1 player also tanks SUBSTANTIALLY more hits than a level 20, in the same equipment.

the only progression, is in the Action Adventure mechanics, rings and collectibles.

Okay so while I understand your frustration, calling this marketing fraud is, quite frankly, stupid and slanderous.

Scaling in RPG's and their ilk has been a thing very heavily since the The Elder Scrolls 4: Oblivion first started doing it or at least started it mainstream.

I also don't have a problem with scaling, it is good to improve enemies so that your own improvements to your character don't make the game a cakewalk because you over-leveled.

That is actually WHY scaling is in games with leveling systems in the first place. It is a band-aid on the problem of over-leveling in games that makes them trivial. Is it implemented in a ham fist way in the Remnant games? Sure. Is it fraud? No dude, just no, lol.

I think if they actually EXPLAINED to players how it worked in a 2-3 page hint pop-up on the Worldstone it would not come as a shock to players as much. The vagueness of how it works until you learn how to "game the system" is quite frankly tedious.

Basically if you are building for mod/skill damage you focus on archetype levels with weapon levels as secondary. For ranged/melee you focus on weapon levels with some consideration to archetype levels. It is a balancing act and depends heavily on what archetypes you are running. For instance with Summoner, Engineer, or Archon I barely upgrade my weapons but sparingly but with most others I go about a decent pace depending on my relative ranged/melee damage to archetype levels.

Again scaling is in MANY RPG's.

[Mononymouse]

Originally posted by bladeddragonknight:

Originally posted by Mononymouse:

The fact that the Entire RPG portion of the game, is invalidated, makes it Marketing fraud, which they need to fix immediately, or remove RPG from their tags.

this isn't just a simple mistake, they willfully lured people to a product, without delivering what was promised, so far as to invalidate the RPG mechanics in the back end, so the players wouldn't notice.

a level 1 player, deals percentage damage more, than a level 20 player with the same equipment.

The level 1 player also tanks SUBSTANTIALLY more hits than a level 20, in the same equipment.

the only progression, is in the Action Adventure mechanics, rings and collectibles.

Okay so while I understand your frustration, calling this marketing fraud is, quite frankly, stupid and slanderous.

Scaling in RPG's and their ilk has been a thing very heavily since the The Elder Scrolls 4: Oblivion first started doing it or at least started it mainstream.

I also don't have a problem with scaling, it is good to improve enemies so that your own improvements to your character don't make the game a cakewalk because you over-leveled.

That is actually WHY scaling is in games with leveling systems in the first place. It is a band-aid on the problem of over-leveling in games that makes them trivial. Is it implemented in a ham fist way in the Remnant games? Sure. Is it fraud? No dude, just no, lol.

I think if they actually EXPLAINED to players how it worked in a 2-3 page hint pop-up on the Worldstone it would not come as a shock to players as much. The vagueness of how it works until you learn how to "game the system" is quite frankly tedious.

Basically if you are building for mod/skill damage you focus on archetype levels with weapon levels as secondary. For ranged/melee you focus on weapon levels with some consideration to archetype levels. It is a balancing act and depends heavily on what archetypes you are running. For instance with Summoner, Engineer, or Archon I barely upgrade my weapons but sparingly but with most others I go about a decent pace depending on my relative ranged/melee damage to archetype levels.

Again scaling is in MANY RPG's.

Claiming to sell a product that does X, then making absolutely certain that that claim is invalidated in a way those whom purchase won't notice?

Yeah, that's marketing fraud.

Genre Tags are there to tell a player what is or is not in a Game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJz3sYiBevg

This in its current form, is not an RPG.

as 12 damage, should never be more than 42 damage.

[VinVizer]

Not everything marked RPG is going to be WoW/DnD/Skyrim/Final Fantasy.

Power level is not equivalent to character level from those games.

RPG just denote roleplaying as character in a narrative game which clearly happens in Remnant 2.

And the power level 1 being stronger than a power level 20 in every way is clearly nonsense.

I do think Remnant 2 has some system problems but the issue isn't the scaling based on power level.

Imo, the game should be doing dynamic scaling based on the archetype levels and weapons that you have equipped instead of zone level scaling based on an aggregate of your strongest archetype and gear.

No more "gaming the system".

You put on your good gear?
The enemies scale to be an appropriate challenge.

You want to try a new archetype/weapon/build out?
The enemies scale to be an appropriate challenge.

I think dynamic scaling would even make coop better though I admit that it would be a more complicated system to implement.

I think a lot of the player frustration comes from the zone level scaling just feeling bad after upgrading.

Think about this scenario:
1. Player feels like their build is struggling against a piece of content
2. Player upgrades their weapons and gets an immediate boost of power
3. Clears out the piece of content and feel powerful
4. Next zone level is higher which means some of the power increase is lost

Of course, players will feel bad if they feel that they lost some power that they enjoyed.

[Flip_Light]

Originally posted by SkyHunter:

It sounds like you want the game to be easier? Can't you play on a lower difficulty, or is the lowest already the problem? Maybe they can add something like a story mode, where you can't die at all, then the enemies don't need to scale to keep it interesting.

Literally this, turn down the difficulty.

[bladeddragonknight]

Originally posted by Mononymouse:

Originally posted by bladeddragonknight:

Okay so while I understand your frustration, calling this marketing fraud is, quite frankly, stupid and slanderous.

Scaling in RPG's and their ilk has been a thing very heavily since the The Elder Scrolls 4: Oblivion first started doing it or at least started it mainstream.

I also don't have a problem with scaling, it is good to improve enemies so that your own improvements to your character don't make the game a cakewalk because you over-leveled.

That is actually WHY scaling is in games with leveling systems in the first place. It is a band-aid on the problem of over-leveling in games that makes them trivial. Is it implemented in a ham fist way in the Remnant games? Sure. Is it fraud? No dude, just no, lol.

I think if they actually EXPLAINED to players how it worked in a 2-3 page hint pop-up on the Worldstone it would not come as a shock to players as much. The vagueness of how it works until you learn how to "game the system" is quite frankly tedious.

Basically if you are building for mod/skill damage you focus on archetype levels with weapon levels as secondary. For ranged/melee you focus on weapon levels with some consideration to archetype levels. It is a balancing act and depends heavily on what archetypes you are running. For instance with Summoner, Engineer, or Archon I barely upgrade my weapons but sparingly but with most others I go about a decent pace depending on my relative ranged/melee damage to archetype levels.

Again scaling is in MANY RPG's.

Claiming to sell a product that does X, then making absolutely certain that that claim is invalidated in a way those whom purchase won't notice?

Yeah, that's marketing fraud.

Genre Tags are there to tell a player what is or is not in a Game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJz3sYiBevg

This in its current form, is not an RPG.

as 12 damage, should never be more than 42 damage.

Oh STFU you pretentious loon. It is everything it claims to be. Just because you and the guy that made that video don't agree with it doesn't change reality.

You didn't even refute anything I said because you are braindead from reading too much Twitter and watching too much Youtube and can't think.

Mad cuz bad and facts don't care about your feelings. Get better at the game and this problem of yours will disappear.

[i2um1]

Originally posted by bladeddragonknight:

Scaling in RPG's and their ilk has been a thing very heavily since the The Elder Scrolls 4: Oblivion first started doing it or at least started it mainstream.

TES 4 is one of my favorite games. The auto leveling was before TES 4 though. TES 4 has OK auto leveling: you can beat the game on the first level (if you want) and there's no issue with difficulty (if you don't upgrade bad skills), Also, the game is easy to be broken. On the other hand Remnant 2 has awful auto leveling, even in co-op.

I think the auto leveling in Remnant 2 must be based on relic fragments since they are so powerful. The weapon downgrade feature is not a solution.

[ANCsemi]

Originally posted by Flip_Light:

Originally posted by SkyHunter:

It sounds like you want the game to be easier? Can't you play on a lower difficulty, or is the lowest already the problem? Maybe they can add something like a story mode, where you can't die at all, then the enemies don't need to scale to keep it interesting.

Literally this, turn down the difficulty.

Flip, you've already beaten this "solution" of yours to death. It isn't a solution, as it doesn't address the core problem with the system in place.

Originally posted by ANCsemi:

Is not the purpose of upgrading your gear to make the game easier?

Did ANYONE come into this game thinking, "If I spend three hours farming scrap and metal, I can make my enemies hit me harder! :D" ???

The issue is that 'upgrading' your weapons beyond a certain point will, in fact, make you less powerful relative to the scaling of the enemies because you upgraded your weapon

This makes the upgrade system both counterintuitive, and counterproductive.

[VinVizer]

Of course weapon downgrade feature isn't a solution... it isn't trying to "fix scaling".

If it was to "fix scaling", then they'd be giving you back 100% of resources.

It is just so you can recoup some resources from guns/mutators that you no longer use.

[Mononymouse]

Originally posted by bladeddragonknight:

Originally posted by Mononymouse:

Claiming to sell a product that does X, then making absolutely certain that that claim is invalidated in a way those whom purchase won't notice?

Yeah, that's marketing fraud.

Genre Tags are there to tell a player what is or is not in a Game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJz3sYiBevg

This in its current form, is not an RPG.

as 12 damage, should never be more than 42 damage.

Oh STFU you pretentious loon. It is everything it claims to be. Just because you and the guy that made that video don't agree with it doesn't change reality.

You didn't even refute anything I said because you are braindead from reading too much Twitter and watching too much Youtube and can't think.

Mad cuz bad and facts don't care about your feelings. Get better at the game and this problem of yours will disappear.

the game is easy, as if you don't level up, or you use any of the 100,000+ damage builds, its incredibly simple.

There is no skill issue, this is clearly a morality issue, of a company committing marketing fraud.

Not sure why you have to get so heated about it, its the only system in the game that has a problem, as All the Action Adventure systems work fine, in so far as they have builds that increase damage well beyond any reasonable limits.

Yet, the "RPG" mechanics are invalidated on the backend, hidden from the players, clearly to get the RPG tag on the game, this was all for marketing an Action Adventure game.

An Action Adventure game, that is not, even slightly, an RPG, but the illusion of RPG mechanics are certainly there.

That's why its Marketing Fraud.

Because they willfully tried to hide the fact that they were disabling the entire Genre that they tagged the game for. RPG.

Either they can fix it, and make the RPG systems meaningful, or they can remove the errant RPG tag.

One way or the other, they can fix the issue quite simply.

Originally posted by ANCsemi:

Originally posted by Flip_Light:

Literally this, turn down the difficulty.

Flip, you've already beaten this "solution" of yours to death. It isn't a solution, as it doesn't address the core problem with the system in place.

Originally posted by ANCsemi:

Is not the purpose of upgrading your gear to make the game easier?

Did ANYONE come into this game thinking, "If I spend three hours farming scrap and metal, I can make my enemies hit me harder! :D" ???

The issue is that 'upgrading' your weapons beyond a certain point will, in fact, make you less powerful relative to the scaling of the enemies because you upgraded your weapon

This makes the upgrade system both counterintuitive, and counterproductive.

It is remarkable they choose to be reactionary instead of thinking about this problem critically.

[bladeddragonknight]

Originally posted by Mononymouse:

Originally posted by bladeddragonknight:

Oh STFU you pretentious loon. It is everything it claims to be. Just because you and the guy that made that video don't agree with it doesn't change reality.

You didn't even refute anything I said because you are braindead from reading too much Twitter and watching too much Youtube and can't think.

Mad cuz bad and facts don't care about your feelings. Get better at the game and this problem of yours will disappear.

the game is easy, as if you don't level up, or you use any of the 100,000+ damage builds, its incredibly simple.

There is no skill issue, this is clearly a morality issue, of a company committing marketing fraud.

Not sure why you have to get so heated about it, its the only system in the game that has a problem, as All the Action Adventure systems work fine, in so far as they have builds that increase damage well beyond any reasonable limits.

Yet, the "RPG" mechanics are invalidated on the backend, hidden from the players, clearly to get the RPG tag on the game, this was all for marketing an Action Adventure game.

An Action Adventure game, that is not, even slightly, an RPG, but the illusion of RPG mechanics are certainly there.

That's why its Marketing Fraud.

Because they willfully tried to hide the fact that they were disabling the entire Genre that they tagged the game for. RPG.

Either they can fix it, and make the RPG systems meaningful, or they can remove the errant RPG tag.

One way or the other, they can fix the issue quite simply.

Eventually the zones have a bare minimum power level you have to reach ANYWAY. So the argument you and the video are making are pointless because you have to meet the bare minimum of power level of the zone either through archetype or weapon damage boosts as well as defensive boosts to counter the bare minimum zone power level.

THIS WILL HAPPEN ANYWAY. Are you THAT dense that you don't know that? Has Twitter melted your brain?

[ANCsemi]

Originally posted by VinVizer:

You put on your good gear?
The enemies scale to be an appropriate challenge.

You want to try a new archetype/weapon/build out?
The enemies scale to be an appropriate challenge.

Good idea, but here's the problem:
There is no 'good gear' if the enemies ALWAYS pose a consistent challenge.

Creating a completely flat difficulty curve that makes the game exactly as challenging as it's always been, whether you upgrade your gear or not, makes the upgrade system pointless. So why is it there?

Originally posted by VinVizer:

I think a lot of the player frustration comes from the zone level scaling just feeling bad after upgrading.

Think about this scenario:
1. Player feels like their build is struggling against a piece of content
2. Player upgrades their weapons and gets an immediate boost of power
3. Clears out the piece of content and feel powerful
4. Next zone level is higher which means some of the power increase is lost

Of course, players will feel bad if they feel that they lost some power that they enjoyed.

This is the issue at hand. Upgrading feels bad, because the enemies in the next instance will ALWAYS slap you harder for pouring in resources.

You don't lose "some" of your power increase; you lose all of it. When the enemies scale to you, you're always weaker than you were the last time. Because enemy health AND damage go up, while upgrading your weapon ONLY 'upgrades' your damage - it doesn't improve your survivability in-line with the enemies' damage buffs.

Even if you did get more health, enemy scaling always outpaces the scaling you get from your 'upgrades.' This is clearly shown in the video, as I've got something like +40% straight damage buffs (in addition to my weapon 'upgrades') and it still took just as many shots to kill the enemy.

That means that AT MINIMUM, the enemies are scaling 40% faster than our weapon 'upgrades' scale us.

[bladeddragonknight]

Originally posted by ANCsemi:

Originally posted by VinVizer:

You put on your good gear?
The enemies scale to be an appropriate challenge.

You want to try a new archetype/weapon/build out?
The enemies scale to be an appropriate challenge.

Good idea, but here's the problem:
There is no 'good gear' if the enemies ALWAYS pose a consistent challenge.

Creating a completely flat difficulty curve that makes the game exactly as challenging as it's always been, whether you upgrade your gear or not, makes the upgrade system pointless. So why is it there?

Originally posted by VinVizer:

I think a lot of the player frustration comes from the zone level scaling just feeling bad after upgrading.

Think about this scenario:
1. Player feels like their build is struggling against a piece of content
2. Player upgrades their weapons and gets an immediate boost of power
3. Clears out the piece of content and feel powerful
4. Next zone level is higher which means some of the power increase is lost

Of course, players will feel bad if they feel that they lost some power that they enjoyed.

This is the issue at hand. Upgrading feels bad, because the enemies in the next instance will ALWAYS slap you harder for pouring in resources.

You don't lose "some" of your power increase; you lose all of it. When the enemies scale to you, you're always weaker than you were the last time. Because enemy health AND damage go up, while upgrading your weapon ONLY 'upgrades' your damage - it doesn't improve your survivability in-line with the enemies' damage buffs.

Even if you did get more health, enemy scaling always outpaces the scaling you get from your 'upgrades.' This is clearly shown in the video, as I've got something like +40% straight damage buffs (in addition to my weapon 'upgrades') and it still took just as many shots to kill the enemy. That means that AT MINIMUM, the enemies are scaling 40% faster than our weapon 'upgrades' scale us.

My guy there are people building tanky and tanking stuff on APOCALPYSE. Which kind of negates your point.

If you are not building tanky then why are you complaining about the damage if you should be avoiding it more?

Also it isn't like even on a tanky build that you should just be able to stand there and eat everything. You gotta dodge SOME things.

I feel like some of these complaints are about tanky builds in disguise of something else. If you want proper challenge while also making tanky builds viable then they still have to be KILLABLE. I feel like Gunfire is slowly trying to find that sweet spot.

[Mononymouse]

Originally posted by bladeddragonknight:

Originally posted by ANCsemi:

Originally posted by VinVizer:

You put on your good gear?
The enemies scale to be an appropriate challenge.

You want to try a new archetype/weapon/build out?
The enemies scale to be an appropriate challenge.

Good idea, but here's the problem:
There is no 'good gear' if the enemies ALWAYS pose a consistent challenge.

Creating a completely flat difficulty curve that makes the game exactly as challenging as it's always been, whether you upgrade your gear or not, makes the upgrade system pointless. So why is it there?

Originally posted by VinVizer:

I think a lot of the player frustration comes from the zone level scaling just feeling bad after upgrading.

Think about this scenario:
1. Player feels like their build is struggling against a piece of content
2. Player upgrades their weapons and gets an immediate boost of power
3. Clears out the piece of content and feel powerful
4. Next zone level is higher which means some of the power increase is lost

Of course, players will feel bad if they feel that they lost some power that they enjoyed.

This is the issue at hand. Upgrading feels bad, because the enemies in the next instance will ALWAYS slap you harder for pouring in resources.

You don't lose "some" of your power increase; you lose all of it. When the enemies scale to you, you're always weaker than you were the last time. Because enemy health AND damage go up, while upgrading your weapon ONLY 'upgrades' your damage - it doesn't improve your survivability in-line with the enemies' damage buffs.

Even if you did get more health, enemy scaling always outpaces the scaling you get from your 'upgrades.' This is clearly shown in the video, as I've got something like +40% straight damage buffs (in addition to my weapon 'upgrades') and it still took just as many shots to kill the enemy. That means that AT MINIMUM, the enemies are scaling 40% faster than our weapon 'upgrades' scale us.

Thank you for detailing that so well so he can see the problem from another viewpoint.

Well written.

In summary, there are no functional RPG mechanics, they are nothing but an illusion.
The only progression system are the Action Adventure mechanics, such as Rings, amulets, relic shard etc.

Marketing Fraud go brrrr.

[bladeddragonknight]

Originally posted by Mononymouse:

Originally posted by bladeddragonknight:

Originally posted by ANCsemi:

Good idea, but here's the problem:
There is no 'good gear' if the enemies ALWAYS pose a consistent challenge.

Creating a completely flat difficulty curve that makes the game exactly as challenging as it's always been, whether you upgrade your gear or not, makes the upgrade system pointless. So why is it there?




This is the issue at hand. Upgrading feels bad, because the enemies in the next instance will ALWAYS slap you harder for pouring in resources.

You don't lose "some" of your power increase; you lose all of it. When the enemies scale to you, you're always weaker than you were the last time. Because enemy health AND damage go up, while upgrading your weapon ONLY 'upgrades' your damage - it doesn't improve your survivability in-line with the enemies' damage buffs.

Even if you did get more health, enemy scaling always outpaces the scaling you get from your 'upgrades.' This is clearly shown in the video, as I've got something like +40% straight damage buffs (in addition to my weapon 'upgrades') and it still took just as many shots to kill the enemy. That means that AT MINIMUM, the enemies are scaling 40% faster than our weapon 'upgrades' scale us.

Thank you for detailing that so well so he can see the problem from another viewpoint.

Well written.

No one who isn't trolling writes like this. Literally NO ONE. Are you also sipping Earl Grey?

[Mononymouse]

Originally posted by bladeddragonknight:

Originally posted by Mononymouse:

Thank you for detailing that so well so he can see the problem from another viewpoint.

Well written.

No one who isn't trolling writes like this. Literally NO ONE. Are you also sipping Earl Grey?

I am sorry you feel that way, your opinion is just as valid as it isn't.

Your tactics to invalidate my observations, aren't going to work on me bud.

The game is broken, and can be fixed via two methods.
Either making the game have RPG mechanics, instead of illusions of such mechanics.
Or, they can remove the RPG tag.

Its very simple to avoid marketing fraud, just don't falsely advertise systems, then make efforts to invalidate them on the back end so the player won't find out.

Simple.