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Nerfing is good
Pain is fun
Obey to the allmighty Dark Souls crowd
What about Alchemist revive which is basically Challenger's prime perk on a 90 second cooldown?
Only difference is that it's pro-active and not 100% passive, but that's a pretty small price to pay for being able to use it 6x as often.
It also has a cooldown of 180 second if someone is revived by it already.
It does have the 180 second cd if it revives you, but that is still a lot more uses than Die Hard.
In practice, the 20 second window is not hard to work around in a boss fight, since you tend to know what the "problem" areas will be after seeing the fight a couple times.
And of course, there's the benefit of being able to both rez a downed teammate while putting a self-revive on yourself at the same time.
It's different, but arguably a lot stronger and more versatile. Challenger's prime perk is one of the worst in the game, imo.
And this is from someone who generally is going to have Challenger as one of my archetypes no matter what. It's just not great in the first slot.
You can be good enough to just not die or you still die but that 2nd chance could have made the difference to finish the fight.
If anything, I find the summoner prime perk more useless. I'm not gonna take the time to shoot my own summon on purpose.
Armor / DR: Not required, and thanks for the nerfs armor can carry even casual players through apocalypse almost facerolling. This should be addressed in the apocalypse difficulty ( by nerfing the DR cap or similar ).
Balance: While being a game with RPG elements always means that some items will be tier D and others tier S, it's true that some items could use some adjustement.
ps: if you feel that you must run specific items/builds on apocalypse difficulty, that now is pretty chilling not to say trivial ( especially in solo ), then you should probably try not to use them and give it a shot to properly learn the game mechanics ( aka, trying to beat the game without having to rely on DR, to the point you won't consider it "mandatory" ).
I still hope for gunfire to teak nightmare a little and to increase Apocalypse difficulty to at least how it was post nerf ( currently there's no challenge at all, and all encounters, whether they are solo or co-op, can be cleared at first attempt, maybe with a couple tries on a few of them ).
You miss a lot of my points with these arguments. For friendly fire, I made a statement that me and my friend literally abandoned our builds just so we don't have to invest in kinship. It's not skill relevant.. a player doing a build with firestorm is often going to create hell for a player running a melee build, else they have to just not use it. After we abandoned those builds, we played fine for a while without kinship, until last night he decided he wanted to try the unarmed build and I ran a fun little support build for it with doggo and alchemist second skill (boosts melee speed, dog boosts damage). If you think FF is a positive thing for the game, then we are simply at a difference of opinion. In such case, i don't want changes to cater to just me, but i know my friends feel the same, and would like a toggle for that. Even a toggle to disable just the friendly knockdowns would be a huge improvement to me.
Armor and DR.. sure 'not required'. Technically nothing is required.. if your good enough you can go completely naked and beat apocalypse (assuming enemies don't resist the damage to 0). Point of my post is that avoiding one-hits in apocolypse difficulty is an investment, and the best investment is bright steel with leto's. Nothing compares at an equivalent investment, unless you wanna dump your amulet slot on leto's amulet. Of course theirs several ways to dump into -weight options, but that route takes far more investment. The final option would be a true face-tank build, which is a very strict assortment of items/traits leaving I think one ring slot available, and unless i haven't delve enough into it medic primary so that crystal heart can be kept up. Samoflange too, with little extra investment will prevent one-shots, but amulet slot.. you only get one, so investing the armor slots and ignoring any fashion is simply better. I'm not asking for invincibility on any build, it's just the one-shots (and i understand effective health, i think too many people here undervalue vigor as a trait or seal of the empress).
Balance; the goal should really be to bring everything to a usefulness based on builds. A D tier item can be S tier in the right build and i'll say that's fine, but some rings for example are just worst then others. I don't like it as an example, but restriction cord vs hardened coil. On the surface, hardened coil is simply better, and while i feel restriction cord needs a buff to it's DR to make it useable, it is in theory a 'S-tier in right build' scenario. It's just, as it is, your getting one shot on apocalypse with it making it's DR pointless, unless again that's all your build is doing.
I misstated on the couple builds thing a tiny bit.. it's that your either sacrificing a couple things to take a hit and your character has one look (leto's), full investing into DR which feels bad and good for different reasons, or your accepting that you must play perfectly. If i'm correct, bosses slightly change up on veteran.. maybe that's just me. Regardless, that should be how difficulty is tuned, not buffing/nerfing numbers. Give me a harder boss to overcome with my gameplay, not a boss to overcome with my numbers or pure perfection of past experience. It's not interesting, and in this game with the amount of options a player has with it's rpg elements, it actually makes it far less interesting.
Now, full transparency, i've done extremely little on solo apocalypse. A little bit of level grinding for a final few classes i haven't maxed yet and that's it. Pretty much all of my apocalypse experience comes from multiplayer, 2-3 people. Maybe it's less investment for tanking a single hit on solo, i don't know for sure. Consider my experience entirely in multiplayer.
About ff, I think tornado is just a cheat and not even something like a build ( as it invalidates not only creeps, but also some bosses ).
I was more referring to normal shots, some aoes and maybe the enigma ( even if your ally has to deliberately aim you ), but even with a tornado build, what you can do is to expend 10 points in kinship ( although it's the tornado player the one who usually does so ).
If you were referring to other builds not involving tornados, that's ok, but I never experienced issues with anything but tornados, and enigma pre release, so maybe it's just my experience.
I wonder why it has always to come down to black or white.
Leaving apart that mark 2 + bsr is not an investement, but rather a cheat that currently keeps carrying randoms through the whole game, regardless the difficulty, it's not that if you don't push towards DR the alternative is going naked barefisting the boss.
On a 2 min boss fight, having 10x shield relic would allow the player to withstand 10 attacks that would have otherwise killed them, along with using black cat band or an archetype that gives free revive, shield or dodge.
Meaning that even with 40/50% DR a player will be mostly fine during the fight.
Obviously, if the player/s keep dying they'll push towards DR to avoid skilling themselves ( even though it's not all on them, but also on the party members ).
Pushing towards HP is like wearing mark 2 and bsr, aka refusing to learn and try to build up defenses instead.
Which might be good up to vet, but from nightmare on I think one should start to challenge themselves. But again, that's me talking since apo post nerf become a joke.
I have never seen in years a game where all items/traits/stats, etc... are useful in some way ( to be a good alternative to other ones ).
What might happen is that the meta switched because of DLC/EXPANSIONS and patches ( nerfs/fixes ), but there will always be something better than others.
Restriction cord is not so good, indeed, but that's because it's too easy to stack bulwark.
So, if any, the bulwark stacks given by other items/skills should be halven.
For example, getting 1 bulwark stack for every active summon + blood bond trait ( which is currently bugged, as it doesn't count towards DR but it's a "true" 10% damage sharing ) is way stronger. But this doesn't mean we have to buff other items ( but rather work on those that are overpowered and used by the majority of players ).
Nerfing down what's too good would indeed switch the meta, but towards the bottom.
Meaning the new builds will be less effective, ending up to provide more challenging encounters.
PS: you should definitely try apo, as DR is not pointless there, unless you expect to tank every kind of attack ( eventually, more than once before needing to heal ).
Also, even if there might be some attacks that would kill you, the game is currently that nerfed that you can build up DR and HP increase ( relic fragment + flask + rings + traits + shield ), being able to survive even those attacks.
It has a niche because it went from being a must for a specific build( leto + restriction cord ) to just one of the several items giving DR.
And consider you can get 100% DR out of 80% ( it still obviously count as 80%, but just to point out you can get past it easily ), the cord feels underwhelming.
Also, there's no HP cap, meaning that not only that item halves your hp pool, but now character can aim up to 270hp IIRC, with some builds.
If you want to tank, you won't get it even if i would give +50% DR, because Hit points matters more and you can easily achieve 80% DR regardless the build ( starting from 62.3% with mark 2 with lab gloves + fortify ).
@Kappa The ff thing isn't about survival, it's about builds conflicting. Me and my friend built kinship both and he couldn't do crap to me. However: A - Tornado would suck me in and blind me so that i'm swinging and not seeing what i'm hitting, and B - Starshot would knock me down, which could lead to my death if the boss then dumps into me.
The builds conflict too much that they are unusable together, ruined by friendly fire. Tho the issue is primarily CC and not so much damage, i still think just removing friendly fire would be an improvement. kinship feels like a filler trait, and i personally can't see how investing points into it can feel good for anybody. However, like i said, at least removing the ability to CC other players would be enough for me, it would allow the builds to coincide with each other, and i'll just mod the game for 10 extra trait points so that my friends and I don't have to waste trait points on kinship just to make the builds work.
If i'm understanding what your saying about armor/dr, it's that everything can be dodged and git gud and builds don't matter. 'pushing towards hp is like wearing mark 2 and bsr, refusing to learn and build up defenses instead'. If your argument is don't get hit, then my argument falls on 'don't make so many defense things meaningless'. Also.. don't think shield heart will prevent a ton of one-shots on it's own, which again is my only real issue. That said, i played a ton with shield heart during the early stages of my time in the game and actually don't think i've used it in apocalypse for the exact reason that it feels a bit like a crutch. On apocalypse, given how difficulty in this game is just scaling numbers, i wouldn't expect shield heart to solve things on it's own either. and the unarmed thing, that's just a fun build my friend is trying out.. it's not a "it's the only other thing that works" argument.. literally separate from the issues i have with DR options in the game.
To expect everything to be good, yeah it won't happen. To expect everything to have it's place, also won't happen. That is the ultimate goal tho, and i wanted to provide feedback to help with that goal. Restriction cord is simply one of those that i don't see getting used, as much as i want to use it. Maybe with blood bond because it's bugged i could get a build in with it, but it's 15% DR is still not enough otherwise. If we just nerf good things, we make the game unplayable and I just tell my friends "farewell" and start on Armored Core 6. I'd prefer buff the bad things.. make things feel good to play, make more options, not less.
But earlier in the thread, you said that you are cool w/ items being D-tier normally, but S-tier in specific builds.
I don't understand how Restriction Cord doesn't fall squarely into this exact category?
15% DR fulltime from one item is kinda huge in this game and along w/ other DR-boosting (traits, armor, etc) can easily cap you at 80% and free up some of those traits you would normally have used to achieve max DR.
This seems like a case of not being able to see the forest for the trees.
It reduces damage you do to yourself also. Firestorm completely obliterates you if you get an unlucky shot that either bounces or hits a target that then charges you and the storm follows and drags you in.
Kinship negates all that. Which also means I can run the AOE Trait to get massive storms.
Is this a super viable S-Tier build? Not really. But its really fun to run on Veteran or Below.
Made much more possible to run thanks to Kinship.
Does this S-tier build work on apocalypse? Sure, restriction cord can be used in survivor and veteran, but i'm not sure about nightmare and apocalypse. Surviving hits is a matter of effective health ( ehp = hp / (DR / 100) ). The 15% DR the ring comes with, and even the additional 15% from hardened coil that combines perfectly with it, is still 20% shy from making up for the lost hp. Theirs cool interactions with it, don't get me wrong i love the concept of the ring which is why i use it as an example, but the pro's do not outweigh the cons. I technically don't consider hardened coil or reserve boosting gem, for examples, to be exclusive to restriction cord since they provide benefit before that 50% loss, and anything that perfectly combines with it (specifically 50% or less) can technically still be used in other builds.
That said, maybe shield heart and other shield things can help make up for it, and maybe it's not completely unusable, but it also doesn't really bring anything to the table with it's combos that can't be achieved without that sacrifice. That's sorta the core problem with the item outside of just how it gimps survivability. On the flipside, if you don't plan to get hit, i'm sure theirs ways to get great dps with it.. but also can get great dps without it sooo..
Solo, effecting yourself, that's all fine and not the argument i'm trying to make, or even what i consider the problem. My issue is with coop. It's funny the first time when your friend throws a tornado on you while your tracking to smack a ♥♥♥♥♥, but the humor wears down when it becomes a "one of us has to stop using our build to have fun" thing. Reminder that i love this game, but it's because i love it that i have these problems.. some things just get thrown out the window due to implementation of various things.