Endgame Trait Buiild

[MasterZalm]

Here, I made a perfect end game trait build for literally any build. This does not include the proper setup for challenge runs.

1. Vigor. We all need health to survive hits. More health means more survival.

2. Endurance. We need stamina to dodge and run, since many bosses and even basic enemies have 3hit combos or more, running out of stamina means you cant dodge anymore.

3. Barkskin. You need damage reduction. Face it, most of us wont do a no hit run, your going to take damage. Reduce it so you can take more.

4. Siphoner. Life steal will keep you alive because you also have to do damage, so any you take can be negated with lifesteal.

5a. Fitness. Dodge is pretty common, and you'll likely be dodging alot. Extend that dodge, you'll probably survive more.

5b. Recovery. Stamina regen is useful if you dodge alot, and have better timing. Get that stamina, for more dodges and running, back sooner.

6. Free Slot. Congrats. You get a single trait, based on your build or preference. Summoner? Take Blood Bond/Rugged. Maybe going melee focus? Try Arcane Strike. If you shot the pew pews, use Footwork/Handling to ensure your do better pew pews.

There you have it. Every single trait point you are allowed in the game, consumed. All 60. For every one. No build diversity. Not really.

[Imnuktam]

The first four along with recovery and regen were my go to's as well. Just like pretty much every single one of the 10 friends I had that played this game. Only time I changed them is for some boss fights or when playing a summon heavy build where I also picked blood bond and rugged exactly as you said lol.

So much for the "trait cap is necessary for diversity" argument

[Atma]

Imnuktam a écrit :

The first four along with recovery and regen were my go to's as well. Just like pretty much every single one of the 10 friends I had that played this game. Only time I changed them is for some boss fights or when playing a summon heavy build where I also picked blood bond and rugged exactly as you said lol.

So much for the "trait cap is necessary for diversity" argument

Recovery is great, but I never pick Endurance anymore because you definitely don't need both.

Fitness is kinda meh, if you can dodge already using regular i-frames, dodging further is pointless.

Barkskin depends entirely on your build. I don't take it. Same w/ Siphoner (I do take this lol).

I do pick up the armor trait from Eng because my build likes being able to take hits and heal back up in Apoc.

Somehow Triage isn't even on this list?? Also I take Bloodstream pretty much all the time on a regen build, but never if I'm not running high regen.

Seems there is some diversity after all. Just because YOU don't swap traits based on your build doesn't mean that nobody does.

[Imnuktam]

Atma a écrit :

Imnuktam a écrit :

The first four along with recovery and regen were my go to's as well. Just like pretty much every single one of the 10 friends I had that played this game. Only time I changed them is for some boss fights or when playing a summon heavy build where I also picked blood bond and rugged exactly as you said lol.

So much for the "trait cap is necessary for diversity" argument

Recovery is great, but I never pick Endurance anymore because you definitely don't need both.

Fitness is kinda meh, if you can dodge already using regular i-frames, dodging further is pointless.

Barkskin depends entirely on your build. I don't take it. Same w/ Siphoner (I do take this lol).

I do pick up the armor trait from Eng because my build likes being able to take hits and heal back up in Apoc.

Somehow Triage isn't even on this list?? Also I take Bloodstream pretty much all the time on a regen build, but never if I'm not running high regen.

Seems there is some diversity after all. Just because YOU don't swap traits based on your build doesn't mean that nobody does.

I guess, seems your diversity from my build is you dont take endurance or barkskin and grab triage instead I also have like 5 pts in strong back to get my encumb down to 75 as well i suppose.

Mostly though, your list looks exactly like mine since I never use fitness either, especially now that i use the spectral blade and all my dodges are neutral dodge/charge attack anyways. The truth is the cap could be 95 and still everyone would have almost the same exact list. The cap doesnt encourage diversity, more useful traits would do that.

My exact list is

VIgor, Endurance, Barkskin, Siphoner, and recovery combined with whatever I get from my archetypes. That leaves 1 to change out based on class.

Now that I have the mod though my list can actually have some diversity as I build up my points and have 3 traits to switch out instead of just 1.

If you like the cap, enjoy it. Dont see why you need to campaign against everyone asking to raise it a bit though like its your job and your enjoyment of this game would end if that cap were 95-125 somehow.

[Atma]

Imnuktam a écrit :

Atma a écrit :

Recovery is great, but I never pick Endurance anymore because you definitely don't need both.

Fitness is kinda meh, if you can dodge already using regular i-frames, dodging further is pointless.

Barkskin depends entirely on your build. I don't take it. Same w/ Siphoner (I do take this lol).

I do pick up the armor trait from Eng because my build likes being able to take hits and heal back up in Apoc.

Somehow Triage isn't even on this list?? Also I take Bloodstream pretty much all the time on a regen build, but never if I'm not running high regen.

Seems there is some diversity after all. Just because YOU don't swap traits based on your build doesn't mean that nobody does.

I guess, seems your diversity from my build is you dont take endurance or barkskin and grab triage instead I also have like 5 pts in strong back to get my encumb down to 75 as well i suppose.

Mostly though, your list looks exactly like mine since I never use fitness either, especially now that i use the spectral blade and all my dodges are neutral dodge/charge attack anyways. The truth is the cap could be 95 and still everyone would have almost the same exact list. The cap doesnt encourage diversity, more useful traits would do that.

My exact list is

VIgor, Endurance, Barkskin, Siphoner, and recovery combined with whatever I get from my archetypes. That leaves 1 to change out based on class.

Now that I have the mod though my list can actually have some diversity as I build up my points and have 3 traits to switch out instead of just 1.

If you like the cap, enjoy it. Dont see why you need to campaign against everyone asking to raise it a bit though like its your job and your enjoyment of this game would end if that cap were 95-125 somehow.

Um. When did I campaign? Are you confusing me w/ someone else?

I've actually said over and over again that I think that 20 more traits would feel a lot better, so now I'm a bit confused.

I don't mind there being a cap though. I also don't mind sticking to the 65 that have been alotted, even if I personally feel 85 would be my sweetspot.

I HAVE said plenty of times that the cap ain't going away though, and that's just a fact. People need to understand that and decide how they best want to move forward from there.

[Imnuktam]

Atma a écrit :

Imnuktam a écrit :

I guess, seems your diversity from my build is you dont take endurance or barkskin and grab triage instead I also have like 5 pts in strong back to get my encumb down to 75 as well i suppose.

Mostly though, your list looks exactly like mine since I never use fitness either, especially now that i use the spectral blade and all my dodges are neutral dodge/charge attack anyways. The truth is the cap could be 95 and still everyone would have almost the same exact list. The cap doesnt encourage diversity, more useful traits would do that.

My exact list is

VIgor, Endurance, Barkskin, Siphoner, and recovery combined with whatever I get from my archetypes. That leaves 1 to change out based on class.

Now that I have the mod though my list can actually have some diversity as I build up my points and have 3 traits to switch out instead of just 1.

If you like the cap, enjoy it. Dont see why you need to campaign against everyone asking to raise it a bit though like its your job and your enjoyment of this game would end if that cap were 95-125 somehow.

Um. When did I campaign? Are you confusing me w/ someone else?

I've actually said over and over again that I think that 20 more traits would feel a lot better, so now I'm a bit confused.

I don't mind there being a cap though. I also don't mind sticking to the 65 that have been alotted, even if I personally feel 85 would be my sweetspot.

I HAVE said plenty of times that the cap ain't going away though, and that's just a fact. People need to understand that and decide how they best want to move forward from there.

Maybe I am confusing you with someone else or misunderstanding your position, if so my apologies. I personally wouldnt want to see the cap entirely vanish, but I definitely would like to see it more in the 125 range giving players access to at least about 1/3 of what is available. Would also like to see raising that cap tied to maxing out different archetypes. Something like every archetype you level to 10, raises your overall cap by 10pts.

Even if they did remove it entirely though, 295 is a loooot of hours to play to max that out, I doubt many would do that and I know I wouldnt. I played remnant 1 a lot until a bad stick or ram led to a corrupt save and then this came out so I quit playing it.

I have over 140 or so hrs in this so far and while I didnt use the mod til after I had been capped a bit, I am still under 80 pts and doubt I will keep replaying same 4 maps long enough to hit 295 or even get close. If I did, I would be on apoc constantly by then and those traits would make little difference in power in comparison to maxed mutators and mythic relic fragments.

[ANCsemi]

Lord Quinton a écrit :

MasterZalm a écrit :

I'm almost certain they added things like traversal speed and aura radius so the can claim they have a certain number of traits. Despite the fact that you only have any really access to 6.

Why claim you have any number of traits if you can only really use 6 of them.

Theres a surprising amount of pointless trash in this game, so many weapons that look neat but perform poorly next to starting weapons.... or enigma or that throwing axe you can snipe anything with. those little token things you can attach to your relic.... theres dozens of them and they give such infinitesimally tiny amounts of boosts its pretty much worthless. theres all these different armor sets and yet in the end unless your wearing the heaviest you can find the damage reduction does nothing, when i have 50% dmg redux and elite enemies are 2-shotting me on normal i'm thinking the only reason to even have armor is when your playing fashion souls. so many rings that have are utterly pointless.

this is actually why i stopped playing remnant. in dark souls theres ton of pointless crap too, but theres also a lot of cool stuff with interesting powers that keep me wanting to find new things and play with them. here, its just junk after junk after junk. this is especially true as the difficulty, and thus the effect enemies apply when they hit you, increases faster than you gain power so by the time you can get big defensive buffs ALL enemies are doing MORE damage through your defenses than when you started, and having more hp on top of that.

Armor is in large part rendered useless because of the way the enemies scale to your PL.

Every time your PL goes up (either by upgrading your weapon or leveling an archetype), future enemies get more health and hit you harder.

Upgrading weapons above your current PL hurts you, in the most literal sense.

Survivor, Vet, NM, Apoc, makes no difference. The enemies always scale to your PL+1

[Arani]

I mean... it's not like this at all.

1. If you play anything less than 200+ max hp & Leto II build on Apocalypse, you don't need Vigor at all. You're constantly going to die to 1 hit anyway. Barkskin is the same, and because of the way it really isn't 10% DR at all but more like 1-3% depending on your armor, it will fail to meet a single meaningful breakpoint practically all the time: 1-3 hit kills will still be 1-3 hit kills, Barkskin or not.
   
2. Siphoner is really only good for a bit of endurance while traveling the world, or for the easier fights where after some stray scratch you can just leech your hp back. Personally I really like it, but it's far from essential. In the actually painful encounters, you will almost always need a relic, skill, mod, or something else with a far greater healing power than this.
   
3. The extra evade distance from Fitness is negligible and as a thing pointless anyway most of the time. It's the i-frames that help you dodge something, not the distance. Distance is rarely a factor. For that matter, Untouchable which on paper actually seems great, doesn't seem to do much either. I literally don't even notice if I have that thing on or not, because the evade window is so tiny that either you get it and succeed, or you don't get it and don't succeed regardless of traits or not.
   
4. Recovery is also quite pointless. Outside of very rare exceptions, the bosses etc. are planned in a way where the most you'll have to dodge is 2-3x in a row. So if you have to spam it, chances are you don't know what you're doing. And because of the poor i-frames, you're going to get hit anyway because the dodge itself is useless unless you time it right. While extra stamina/stamina recovery helps with all the running around, charged melees etc. too, all of that is stuff you generally don't need to do.

Now, I'm not saying the traits above are actually completely pointless (even the ones I called 'useless'). They can be made to work. But I am definitely saying that they are not some be-all and end-all essential traits of every build. Not even close.

I agree that it's a problem that not all traits are created equal, and there's some stuff like the Wayfarer that's pretty much never gonna be a good pick. And on a personal level, I've never been a fan of game design that puts stuff like extra exp or QoL (Explorer / Wayfarer etc.) against combat efficiency, especially in a coop game. That's literally just a way of saying "we want you to make the choice to leech off other players, in order to progress faster". Such an immoral thing to do.

But there's plenty of other choices to be made with the trait cap we have.

[Atma]

Arani a écrit :

I mean... it's not like this at all.

If you play anything less than 200+ max hp & Leto II build on Apocalypse, you don't need Vigor at all. You're constantly going to die to 1 hit anyway. Barkskin is the same, and because of the way it really isn't 10% DR at all but more like 1-3% depending on your armor, it will fail to meet a single meaningful breakpoint practically all the time: 1-3 hit kills will still be 1-3 hit kills, Barkskin or not.

Who told you this? This isn't true at all lol. You don't need full Leto's and 200 hp to survive hits on Apocalypse, I've never even been close to 200hp and somewhere around 60% DR and survive just fine on Apoc, no real issues. Venom, Annihilation, etc. Definitely not being one-shot unless I'm getting hit by the big avoidable mechanics like Venom's spear throw.

This is just patently false.

Siphoner is really only good for a bit of endurance while traveling the world, or for the easier fights where after some stray scratch you can just leech your hp back. Personally I really like it, but it's far from essential. In the actually painful encounters, you will almost always need a relic, skill, mod, or something else with a far greater healing power than this.

Siphoner, like everything else, works as a part of a whole. It's not good by itself, but it's pretty great when you pair it w/ something like Dying Ember and Decayed Margin. Like most traits, this is situational. Pretty much what it's intended to be.

Recovery is also quite pointless. Outside of very rare exceptions, the bosses etc. are planned in a way where the most you'll have to dodge is 2-3x in a row. So if you have to spam it, chances are you don't know what you're doing. And because of the poor i-frames, you're going to get hit anyway because the dodge itself is useless unless you time it right. While extra stamina/stamina recovery helps with all the running around, charged melees etc. too, all of that is stuff you generally don't need to do.

Have you... even used Recovery? <.<

Did you know that dodges aren't the only thing in the game that require stamina? Again, this is situational. Amazing for builds that are stam-heavy (like spamming melee charged attacks) or built around dodging. Just okay elsewhere.

I used to call out traits like Bloodstream for being worthless, but now that I run high regen for the moment, I find it to be a staple part of my trait build and feel a bit silly that I ever felt that way about it. I think a lot of traits are like this, except maybe Wayfarer, but I guess even that has a place in Explorer farming builds.

I actually agree w/ the gist of your post, that the cap isn't as harmful as people make it out to be and that the choices provided are valuable utility, but not necessary to any build.

But some of these write-ups seem questionable lol.

[Arani]

Atma a écrit :

This is just patently false.

Patently false? There's a reason people keep making topics about this very issue.

For example on my last Apoc run my most common build had full Vit with Mudtooth tonic & some other buffs to a little over 160hp total. I was also using medium armor (48/50 encumbrance) for around 34% DR. So: 60% more hp than default, medium armor (not light). This is a TON of more survivability than the minimum.

Yet I was literally getting 1-shot all over the place, all the time. Especially with bosses. With the Black Cat Band I could tank 1 hit every 2 minutes, and that was that. Even Void Cloak was next to useless, since it only afforded me 1 (not 3) auto-evade per every 1min+ CD due to the extreme damage. The only reason I bothered speccing anything into hp or armor at all, was because 1) there were the occasional trash mob hits or DoT AoE's etc. where even the tiny bit extra survivability mattered, and 2) the negligible penalties for going from light to medium armor didn't really impact my stamina economy or dodges. Yet with this setup, there were several occasions where I would get 1-hit killed even through the Medic's Healing Shield, so the equivalent of 320hp if I had full health.

Especially on Apocalypse the entire armor system makes no sense because it's basically a binary of "do you get 1-hit, or don't you", is very well known and frequently talked about here and everywhere else. I've actually been thinking about doing a Daredevil Charm run on Apocalypse now that I got HC through, just to prove to myself how utterly busted armor & hp is on Apocalypse mode. But honestly going through the whole bullet sponge vs. instant kill thing once was so abhorrently annoying that I don't know what would be the point.

Siphoner, like everything else, works as a part of a whole. It's not good by itself, but it's pretty great when you pair it w/ something like Dying Ember and Decayed Margin. Like most traits, this is situational. Pretty much what it's intended to be.

Yes this is what I said. Let me quote myself: "I'm not saying the traits above are actually completely pointless (even the ones I called 'useless'). They can be made to work. But I am definitely saying that they are not some be-all and end-all essential traits of every build. Not even close."

That's what the OP said, that's the point of the whole thread. That the traits they posted are somehow necessary on every build, and that's why the trait cap sucks. But they are not, and it does not. And that's what my whole post was about.

Have you... even used Recovery? <.<

Did you know that dodges aren't the only thing in the game that require stamina? Again, this is situational. Amazing for builds that are stam-heavy (like spamming melee charged attacks) or built around dodging. Just okay elsewhere.

Aaand I pretty much said the same thing on this too. It's right there in what you quoted: "While extra stamina/stamina recovery helps with all the running around, charged melees etc. too, all of that is stuff you generally don't need to do." So yeah, as I said, not essential.

I don't really understand what you're trying to do here. Or was my post unclear? This is like me saying "1+1=2" and you saying "have you ever even actually done math? because clearly, 1+1=2". So first you insult me, but then you go ahead and say the same thing I did anyway as if you were the first to say it. Why?

[Roan Shiran]

MasterZalm a écrit :

Here, I made a perfect end game trait build for literally any build.

Nice try, but no.

Arani a écrit :

Atma a écrit :

This is just patently false.

Patently false? There's a reason people keep making topics about this very issue.

For example on my last Apoc run my most common build had full Vit with Mudtooth tonic & some other buffs to a little over 160hp total. I was also using medium armor (48/50 encumbrance) for around 34% DR. So: 60% more hp than default, medium armor (not light). This is a TON of more survivability than the minimum.

34% dr on Apoc? Lol. With barskin and strong back alone you should have around 50 %. You are making a glass cannon and wonder why 1-shot.

[Skeleton]

I recently cleared Apoc with about 50% DR and 149.5HP. The only basic enemy that could one-shot me was the bomb-throwers on Root Earth. Aside from Venom, most bosses had only one specific one-shot attack.

Anyway, the only alleged "mandatory" traits I've ever taken are Vigor and Barkskin. Never used Endurance, there haven't been many times in either playthrough that I felt I needed more Stamina, and the few times I did Recovery was more efficient. I'd say that Untouchable and Fortify are much more vital. That's always left me with enough freedom to pick the more build-specific/convenient traits like Triage, Fitness, Bloodstream, or Regrowth.

Not reflexively maxing both Spirit and Expertise helped a lot. I used to do that at the start, but eventually noticed that depending on the build I'd either focus more on skills or mods, but never both equally.

[Hydrostation]

Vigor is top-tier in any "souls-like" game, no arguments there.

Endurance is useless once you get used to it. Played through fresh Apoc and Hardcore vet, never felt a single desire to have more stamina. Base stamina is more than enough unless you are a panic roller. Having more stamina just makes you panic roll more.

Barkskin is usually only around 10-12% Effective HP. Not a big deal. The armor trait from Engineer, yeah, pretty needed.

Siphoner is nice if you are too lazy to heal or you wanna use alternative relics that don't heal, otherwise not needed.

Fitness, same reasoning as endurance. Speedrolling with bright steel ring in full heavy is fun but not needed.

Recovery, same reasoning as endurance. It's not going to save you, instead you'll just learn to rely on it.

So other than Vigor and the Engineer Trait, nothing else is even close to "required" on Apoc.

Even then, It's a shooting souls-like, it's like a magic playthrough in Souls. There's even Summons.

There are no required traits.

[Evilsod]

Hydrostation a écrit :

Vigor is top-tier in any "souls-like" game, no arguments there.

Have to disagree with that. Levelling vigour to the soft cap at 60 in Elden Ring is almost required because it'll increase your health from 414 at 10 to 1900 at 60. That's an increase of over 400%
Unless you're min/maxing and know exactly how much damage a certain attack from a boss will do so you can survive a one shot anyway.

Vigour has nowhere near the value in this game, but it obviously can put you over that 'one shot' threshold in the right situation.

[Mononymouse]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=riemPg9WPEQ

https://youtu.be/EMu3p_Her64?si=2FgbiPTK_2DV8X8A

These guys don't get hit once through the whole game.
Health and armor isn't needed.

Yall just need to git gud.

[Hydrostation]

Evilsod a écrit :

Hydrostation a écrit :

Vigor is top-tier in any "souls-like" game, no arguments there.

Have to disagree with that. Levelling vigour to the soft cap at 60 in Elden Ring is almost required because it'll increase your health from 414 at 10 to 1900 at 60. That's an increase of over 400%
Unless you're min/maxing and know exactly how much damage a certain attack from a boss will do so you can survive a one shot anyway.

Vigour has nowhere near the value in this game, but it obviously can put you over that 'one shot' threshold in the right situation.

Nowhere near that value as compared to what?

We are talking about trait priority.

None of the traits are as "valuable" as Elden Ring stats. They aren't meant to be. Which is part of my point.

Nothing is required on Apoc, pick any traits you want.