Nerf the Enigma

[𝕁𝕒𝕔𝕜𝕝𝕖]

at this current build there is absolutely NO reason to use any other side arm besides the enigma, youd make your game actually 10x more difficult if you wasnt using it thats how op it is right now.

[Wakipai Pero #PLAYGG]

Originally posted by jojokaizer:

Originally posted by Wakipai Pero #PLAYGG:

I'm not. I can see that the Enigma isn't anywhere near as egregious as a weapon that beats the game in one swing. The reason it's so popular is due to how the game is designed. You have most of the mobs in the game reading your inputs and dodging your skill shots, enemies with erratic animation where aiming at weakspots is a pain, and also mobs that constantly rushes into your face, bringing into light another issue where aiming is extremely janky versus enemies right in your face, even with melee weapons. All this while the game incessantly throws dozens of mobs at you, even during elite encounters and bosses. The Enigma is a natural progression of players adapting to the game.

In that essence, the rest of the repertoire should be buffed or adjusted to be more capable to handle what the game throws at you, instead of nerfing the one gun that is most effective at dealing with the mechanics that the devs have created. It's not a difficult thing to realize.

lol, I am going to give you two options here. is it more likely that they are going to rebalance the whole game or gun system, or to change the one problem? no one is saying enigma beats the game easily, we are saying that it invalidates all mobbing situations.

the shooting in this game is fine, and you are suppose to feel fear when people get close to you. but this gun takes that away. it's not a core game mechanic problem, it's a core enigma problem.

which comes back to the original problem. how do you buff other guns to be on the level of enigma without giving all guns aoe auto aim? the enigma fundamentally changes the gameplay of remnant 2 if you decide to use it. maybe the devs mean it for it to be that way, but it's not a very good way to balance the game.

Or they can do nothing. But I like said in the first place, they should bring the rest of the guns up to par. Meaning they should feel good to be used in the game which they have created.

Right now the problem exists on a fundamental level. They could try to alleviate some of the issue by changing mob behavior, because there's no need for individual mobs to act like a try hard esports players in what's essentially a third person ARPG. It sounds cool on paper, for mobs to be "smart" and react to your aim, but it's not a good experience when the player is getting charged by 20 of them, and all of them decide to dodge at least once before letting the player shoot them. It's not a difficult mechanic to overcome, it's tedious and frustrating. Which is again, why the Enigma is so favored.

High power single shot weapons could at least come with built in penetrating shots. A sniper rifle would penetrate two mooks, while semi automatic long guns can penetrate one, for example.

[PickleRick]

Im not reading all these post but Heavy Flamer is just as melty and has inate buffs from the class, so why use another? Anyway OP the answer is mods.

[jojokaizer]

Originally posted by Wakipai Pero #PLAYGG:

Originally posted by jojokaizer:

lol, I am going to give you two options here. is it more likely that they are going to rebalance the whole game or gun system, or to change the one problem? no one is saying enigma beats the game easily, we are saying that it invalidates all mobbing situations.

the shooting in this game is fine, and you are suppose to feel fear when people get close to you. but this gun takes that away. it's not a core game mechanic problem, it's a core enigma problem.

which comes back to the original problem. how do you buff other guns to be on the level of enigma without giving all guns aoe auto aim? the enigma fundamentally changes the gameplay of remnant 2 if you decide to use it. maybe the devs mean it for it to be that way, but it's not a very good way to balance the game.

Or they can do nothing. But I like said in the first place, they should bring the rest of the guns up to par. Meaning they should feel good to be used in the game which they have created.

Right now the problem exists on a fundamental level. They could try to alleviate some of the issue by changing mob behavior, because there's no need for individual mobs to act like a try hard esports players in what's essentially a third person ARPG. It sounds cool on paper, for mobs to be "smart" and react to your aim, but it's not a good experience when the player is getting charged by 20 of them, and all of them decide to dodge at least once before letting the player shoot them. It's not a difficult mechanic to overcome, it's tedious and frustrating. Which is again, why the Enigma is so favored.

High power single shot weapons could at least come with built in penetrating shots. A sniper rifle would penetrate two mooks, while semi automatic long guns can penetrate one, for example.

you're still not answering my question. all the guns feel fine to use, they are just no where near as good as the enigma. I am using the star shot for fun now, and IT IS fun. but it's nowhere near the effectiveness of the enigma. you either don't seem to understand why it's broken or have never used it in a game. which is why you can't understand why other sidearms can't be buffed to this level.

this is also not just any ARPG shooter, this is a souls like copy of a shooter. you're suppose to be overwhelmed and the difficulty should be hard in all corners. not instantly solved by pointing a gun at a direction while walking forward. the flamethrower side arms that pen all enemies doesn't even compare to the engima, it's that stupid.

[Tr0w]

Originally posted by jojokaizer:

Originally posted by Wakipai Pero #PLAYGG:

Or they can do nothing. But I like said in the first place, they should bring the rest of the guns up to par. Meaning they should feel good to be used in the game which they have created.

Right now the problem exists on a fundamental level. They could try to alleviate some of the issue by changing mob behavior, because there's no need for individual mobs to act like a try hard esports players in what's essentially a third person ARPG. It sounds cool on paper, for mobs to be "smart" and react to your aim, but it's not a good experience when the player is getting charged by 20 of them, and all of them decide to dodge at least once before letting the player shoot them. It's not a difficult mechanic to overcome, it's tedious and frustrating. Which is again, why the Enigma is so favored.

High power single shot weapons could at least come with built in penetrating shots. A sniper rifle would penetrate two mooks, while semi automatic long guns can penetrate one, for example.

you're still not answering my question. all the guns feel fine to use, they are just no where near as good as the enigma. I am using the star shot for fun now, and IT IS fun. but it's nowhere near the effectiveness of the enigma. you either don't seem to understand why it's broken or have never used it in a game. which is why you can't understand why other sidearms can't be buffed to this level.

this is also not just any ARPG shooter, this is a souls like copy of a shooter. you're suppose to be overwhelmed and the difficulty should be hard in all corners. not instantly solved by pointing a gun at a direction while walking forward. the flamethrower side arms that pen all enemies doesn't even compare to the engima, it's that stupid.

And in Souls and Souls style games you can get OP weapons and armour and overlevel and not be overwhelmed so you haven't really made a point.

[Ao Bai Gaming]

Originally posted by Kai:

It's not that strong, I have stronger guns than that, it's just very convenient and easy to point and click without the need to aim.

It's all about builds, anything can potentially become OP if your build is good enough.

At the moment people aren't doing builds that involves complex attainment of rings and items yet, because Enigma alone is one gun that has crowd control, but you can literally make a infinite stamina build that swings massive beams of death energy at everything through walls.

I made a gunslinger type build where I pair two single fire reloading weapon and the 2nd Gunslinger ability, I simply shoot and switch weapons rapidly to do instant DPS of like 50k a minute due to instant reloads on weapon swap.

Oh look the Corruptor fight gave me a boss weapon that shoots a disc that bounces off of targets, just as good as Enigma.

With a build like that, you could use the Sporebloom shotgun Brabus sells after beating the game on a difficulty higher than survivor, mathematically it has the highest DPS on its own, combining it with the hunting pistol would make for an even nastier combination. Problem here is your lack of crowd control unless you sacrificed some damage to use Challenger's stomp of the Engineer's railgun turret.

[Mikoto]

Originally posted by Tr0w:

Originally posted by jojokaizer:

you're still not answering my question. all the guns feel fine to use, they are just no where near as good as the enigma. I am using the star shot for fun now, and IT IS fun. but it's nowhere near the effectiveness of the enigma. you either don't seem to understand why it's broken or have never used it in a game. which is why you can't understand why other sidearms can't be buffed to this level.

this is also not just any ARPG shooter, this is a souls like copy of a shooter. you're suppose to be overwhelmed and the difficulty should be hard in all corners. not instantly solved by pointing a gun at a direction while walking forward. the flamethrower side arms that pen all enemies doesn't even compare to the engima, it's that stupid.

And in Souls and Souls style games you can get OP weapons and armour and overlevel and not be overwhelmed so you haven't really made a point.

How to say you have never played a souls game without saying it.

[Fishy]

Originally posted by jojokaizer:

Originally posted by Wakipai Pero #PLAYGG:

Or they can do nothing. But I like said in the first place, they should bring the rest of the guns up to par. Meaning they should feel good to be used in the game which they have created.

Right now the problem exists on a fundamental level. They could try to alleviate some of the issue by changing mob behavior, because there's no need for individual mobs to act like a try hard esports players in what's essentially a third person ARPG. It sounds cool on paper, for mobs to be "smart" and react to your aim, but it's not a good experience when the player is getting charged by 20 of them, and all of them decide to dodge at least once before letting the player shoot them. It's not a difficult mechanic to overcome, it's tedious and frustrating. Which is again, why the Enigma is so favored.

High power single shot weapons could at least come with built in penetrating shots. A sniper rifle would penetrate two mooks, while semi automatic long guns can penetrate one, for example.

you're still not answering my question. all the guns feel fine to use, they are just no where near as good as the enigma. I am using the star shot for fun now, and IT IS fun. but it's nowhere near the effectiveness of the enigma. you either don't seem to understand why it's broken or have never used it in a game. which is why you can't understand why other sidearms can't be buffed to this level.

this is also not just any ARPG shooter, this is a souls like copy of a shooter. you're suppose to be overwhelmed and the difficulty should be hard in all corners. not instantly solved by pointing a gun at a direction while walking forward. the flamethrower side arms that pen all enemies doesn't even compare to the engima, it's that stupid.

Been sitting here reading this thread with my morning coffee, and Im just wondering, why does it matter at all, If you wanna easy mob clear with the Enigma do it, if you want a another playstyle do it.
I understand all your points but i just don't see why it matters. And for the record i agree it's super powerful. But i just don't see why it should be nerfed.
Honestly it just feel like some ego rant about making the game harder for everyone just because it's supposed to be.
Why does it matter how other people play, does it in some way cheapen your effort or how you play the game ?

[Kai]

Originally posted by jojokaizer:

Originally posted by Rat King:

so you want people to play the way you want?

so you enjoy people with trainers turned on to join your game to cheat? why you limiting how people play? what a dumb ass argument lol.

You don't need trainers, you can already mod the game to unlock all the engram and such via mod loaders.

The video I posted earlier is someone using melee to roflstomp Apoalypse difficulty dungeons. Enigma is good for adds and crowd control but it's still way too slow and inefficient for end game use, you can still get hit while shooting if the crowd can shoot back.

Meanwhile you have new builds coming out that allows you to kill entire crowds near instantly with room clearing swings. Or firestorm spamming with infinite mod power generation.

Using Enigma on Survivor to Nightmare isn't a big deal cuz the HP values on P Lv 20 mobs on Nightmare is only a few more hits than Survivor. Apocalypse is where most people do end game grinding.

[Ao Bai Gaming]

Originally posted by Fishy:

Originally posted by jojokaizer:

you're still not answering my question. all the guns feel fine to use, they are just no where near as good as the enigma. I am using the star shot for fun now, and IT IS fun. but it's nowhere near the effectiveness of the enigma. you either don't seem to understand why it's broken or have never used it in a game. which is why you can't understand why other sidearms can't be buffed to this level.

this is also not just any ARPG shooter, this is a souls like copy of a shooter. you're suppose to be overwhelmed and the difficulty should be hard in all corners. not instantly solved by pointing a gun at a direction while walking forward. the flamethrower side arms that pen all enemies doesn't even compare to the engima, it's that stupid.

Been sitting here reading this thread with my morning coffee, and Im just wondering, why does it matter at all, If you wanna easy mob clear with the Enigma do it, if you want a another playstyle do it.
I understand all your points but i just don't see why it matters. And for the record i agree it's super powerful. But i just don't see why it should be nerfed.
Honestly it just feel like some ego rant about making the game harder for everyone just because it's supposed to be.
Why does it matter how other people play, does it in some way cheapen your effort or how you play the game ?

I just wish there were more innately "area of effect" weapons or mods to use. Why can't we have something similar to the stasis beam but instead of being a slow effect we get a flamethrower or giant blob of acid that leaves a huge puddle? Hellfire is at the very end of the game in an obscure corner, and Nebula is acquired from a specific boss kill from a specific world generation in N'Erude, which half the people playing may completely overlook. Enigma is in the Labyrinth, an area that has guaranteed generation every single time, is easy to explore, and the Cipher Rod is an easy find if you're not just rushing through the game.

The problem isn't that Enigma is too strong, it's that we simply don't have anything else remotely like it. Fire doesn't spread from one target to another if they're nearby (barring the pyromaniac sections of Losomn, very specific mobs), and corroded creatures can't hurt those in close proximity with the acid they permeate.

[Kai]

Originally posted by Ao Bai Gaming:

Originally posted by Fishy:

Been sitting here reading this thread with my morning coffee, and Im just wondering, why does it matter at all, If you wanna easy mob clear with the Enigma do it, if you want a another playstyle do it.
I understand all your points but i just don't see why it matters. And for the record i agree it's super powerful. But i just don't see why it should be nerfed.
Honestly it just feel like some ego rant about making the game harder for everyone just because it's supposed to be.
Why does it matter how other people play, does it in some way cheapen your effort or how you play the game ?

I just wish there were more innately "area of effect" weapons or mods to use. Why can't we have something similar to the stasis beam but instead of being a slow effect we get a flamethrower or giant blob of acid that leaves a huge puddle? Hellfire is at the very end of the game in an obscure corner, and Nebula is acquired from a specific boss kill from a specific world generation in N'Erude, which half the people playing may completely overlook. Enigma is in the Labyrinth, an area that has guaranteed generation every single time, is easy to explore, and the Cipher Rod is an easy find if you're not just rushing through the game.

The problem isn't that Enigma is too strong, it's that we simply don't have anything else remotely like it. Fire doesn't spread from one target to another if they're nearby (barring the pyromaniac sections of Losomn, very specific mobs), and corroded creatures can't hurt those in close proximity with the acid they permeate.

Autoaim that's all it is.

[Ao Bai Gaming]

Originally posted by Kai:

Originally posted by Ao Bai Gaming:

I just wish there were more innately "area of effect" weapons or mods to use. Why can't we have something similar to the stasis beam but instead of being a slow effect we get a flamethrower or giant blob of acid that leaves a huge puddle? Hellfire is at the very end of the game in an obscure corner, and Nebula is acquired from a specific boss kill from a specific world generation in N'Erude, which half the people playing may completely overlook. Enigma is in the Labyrinth, an area that has guaranteed generation every single time, is easy to explore, and the Cipher Rod is an easy find if you're not just rushing through the game.

The problem isn't that Enigma is too strong, it's that we simply don't have anything else remotely like it. Fire doesn't spread from one target to another if they're nearby (barring the pyromaniac sections of Losomn, very specific mobs), and corroded creatures can't hurt those in close proximity with the acid they permeate.

Autoaim that's all it is.

Autoaim is one of the reasons it's so strong, yes, but the Overloaded effect just elevates it to a level of crowd clearing godhood. Certainly you can't burst down bosses with the Enigma, but at the same time that's what your long gun is for. Elemental damage (AE armor doesn't protect the mobs), Big AOE explosion that deals burst damage and staggers. You can use the Meridian for a similar "Fire and forget" playstyle the Enigma provides, but again, that's locked behind lucky tileset generation in Losomn, and gated behind an obscure secret area, obscured even more by killing a slug clogging the drain in the back of said secret area, obscured EVEN FURTHER by having to wait an hour IRL for the water to fill up to acquire it.

[Kai]

For AoE weapon mods, there are a bunch. It's just that elemental effects are the most prominent for Enigma due to the Malevolence ring. It generates M.P. for each tick of elemental effect, there is no gain for regular abilities doing DoT.

But on the other hand, using all your gear for dps makes you a glass cannon.

I'd say rather than nerfing and buffing weapons, make a difficulty change between Veteran to Apocalypse.

Veteran = 2-3 Elites can spawn in 3 player co-op
Nightmare = 3-4 Elites can spawn in 3 player co-op
Apocalypse = 3 elites and a aborrant can spawn in a 3 player co-op...

Lets see how well CC builds do when you have tanky elites crowding the field?

[Peter]

Or just leave the weapon to the others and play your game?

[Kai]

Difficulty needs a buff basically, not weapons or items, since I notice very very small changes from Survivor to Nightmare in terms of threat levels...

My late game character feels equal to a Nightmare difficulty mobs for instance.

Make Veteran mob difficulty have +25% HP and +25% DMG
Then Nightmare adds Haste to all mobs, their projectiles are a bit faster and harder to dodge.
Then Apocalypse gives shields to all Elites, and a +10 resistance to all elemental damage.

As well, matchmaking needs a bit of tuning for power level and difficulty requirements...

Maybe Survivor is PL 1-20
Veteran is PL 21-40
Nightmare is PL 41-60
Apocalypse is P L61-100

Allow higher leveled gears to be found at higher difficulty, like all rings and amulets will have a +1 to +3 variants.
All Relics will have +1 to +3 variants as well.

So a Ring that is +10% Mod Generation can have +15/20/25% for a +1 to +3 version, which upgrades the ring in your inventory (you cannot own multiples).

Allow all weapons to upgrade to level 100 which raises power levels, but comes in forms of a auto-pickup upgrade.

This means a Enigma +10 will have a prefix (Veteran's) if its a Veteran grade Enigma, which has a power level of 40 instead of 20.
Only specific end game weapon unlocks could carry a Prefix of (Legendary) which scales from PL 80 to 100?

[Firellius]

Originally posted by jojokaizer:

you're still not answering my question. all the guns feel fine to use, they are just no where near as good as the enigma. I am using the star shot for fun now, and IT IS fun. but it's nowhere near the effectiveness of the enigma. you either don't seem to understand why it's broken or have never used it in a game. which is why you can't understand why other sidearms can't be buffed to this level.

this is also not just any ARPG shooter, this is a souls like copy of a shooter. you're suppose to be overwhelmed and the difficulty should be hard in all corners. not instantly solved by pointing a gun at a direction while walking forward. the flamethrower side arms that pen all enemies doesn't even compare to the engima, it's that stupid.

If the other guns are fine, what does Enigma matter? Just don't use it. You've still not provided an argument for why everyone else's Enigma should be nerfed to preserve -your- experience.

'You're supposed to be overwhelmed' - By what? Trash mobs? You think the Enigma is the only thing that trivialises a horde call? There's thumper turrets, tremor bombs, Witchfyres, the Firestorm, Cube Shield, Nano Swarm, TImelapse, the song of Eafir and what else more?

Hell, you can START with the Caltrop shot, which is already great crowd control and works well on elites too. That thing made my early game easy, long before Enigma came rolling along.

Could it be that maybe you're not supposed to be overwhelmed by trash mobs and the devs specifically want to give you tools to manage big crowds, only one of which is the Enigma?