Upgrading Your Weapons Makes the Enemies Stronger

[ANCsemi]

[TL;DR] The result is that with almost 50% more health and 65% more armor, an additional 22.5% damage from Medic lvl 10, and all ring and charm slots full, I still die faster and kill slower than a player on the same difficulty, in the same area, at level 1.

[Edit 1:] I'd like to clarify something - I like this game. A LOT. But you don't have to love everything about a game to enjoy it. The intention of this post is to say that the scaling system can be done in a better way, where player progression doesn't feel pointless.

This is a response to my other post about enemies getting stronger every time you level up or upgrade your guns. I decided to stop arguing with dumb people defending a dumb idea, and just made a video instead to showcase my point.

So here it is - dynamic enemy scaling alongside weapon leveling is a HORRIBLE mechanic in a game where players want to feel like they're progressing. You're on a treadmill that just gets faster every time you upgrade your gear.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJz3sYiBevg


Synopsis:

I rolled two of the same world, same difficulty, same armor, same weapon.
One character at Power Level 1, the other at Power Level 16.

Then I fought the same enemy, and compared damage dealt and damage taken.


Lvl 1:

Buffs:
+2.5% all damage (medic perk)

Stats:
106 Health
68 Armor

Time to Kill:
14 hits (1 crit)
Time to Die:
~3.25 hits


Lvl 16:

Buffs:
+25% all damage (medic perk)
+30% Armor (amulet)
+15 Health (ring)
+30 Health (trait)
-5% Incoming Damage (ring)
+15% All Damage (ring)
+10 Health / +10 Armor (ring)

Stats:
152 Health
107.9 Armor

Time to Kill:
15 hits (1 crit)
Time to Die:
~3.1 hits (with 8 Regrowth & 10 Triage)


This is NOT a good mechanic, as there is no sense of player progression. The numbers get bigger, but the enemies are always one step ahead.

Original Thread:
https://steamcommunity.com/app/1282100/discussions/0/3807282428856531914/?tscn=1691184183

EDIT 2:
For people actually interested in the conversation, one possible solution would have been to scale the enemies linearly in the order they're encountered, rather than dynamically with the player's upgrades.

Ie)
Difficulty:
World:
Enemy Power Level:

Surviver
1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5
1 - 4 - 7 - 10 - 13

Veteran
1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5
1 - 5 - 10 - 15 - 20

Nightmare
1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5
3 - 8 - 13 - 18 - 23

Apocalypse
1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5
5 - 11 - 17 - 23 - 29

This is only an example, but you get my point. The result would be that each player can either grind and overlevel, as many love to do, or play as an underdog.

At lower difficulties, it's possible to easily outpace the enemies. At higher difficulties, the enemies quickly outpace you.

But you wouldn't be stuck on a treadmill that always has you at a disadvantage.

Edit 3: removed archetype mention from OP because it's not really relevant to post

Edit 4: revised buff lists to more accurately reflect tests

Edit 5: changed the title to better reflect the point of the topic

[^7ja^1co]

Originally posted by Nakaris:

To make it short yes your right :praisesun:

now comes the but
you can overcome it with broken mechanics at the moment balance is part wise fine on nightmare but cant say for sure because testing with no boss rush mode, functioning dummys and filter for rings maked testing a pain in the ass.:stress::stress::stress:

What are you going to do when they keep nerfing weapons and patching out all those broken mechanics so you got nothing left?

[ANCsemi]

The solution would be scaling the worlds linearly in the order in which you encounter them, independantly of player level or gear.

For example, you go
N'Erud - Labyrinth - Yaesha - Losomn

N'Erud - PL 0
Labyrinth - PL 5
Yaesha - PL 10
Losomn - PL 15
Ashen - PL 20

If you level as you complete the game (as you should), then your level-ups either put you ahead of the curve or behind, depending on how hard you want to grind, and how powerful you want your character to be before you move on.

The curve doesn't move WITH you, keeping you running in place (but falling behind).

Alternatively, you feel that's too hard because you might not be at PL 20 by the end of the game. Okay, make the scaling 3 - 6 - 9 - 12 - 15.

This ensures that by the end, you can be either MORE POWERFUL than the ratio you began with, or less powerful if you so desire.

If you actually want to feel powerful, go back to world 1 later, and you'll still notice the power difference that this system has, without the crippling notion that no matter what, the enemies in your new world will be stronger than you, and you've been wasting your levels and upgrades just falling behind the ever-moving curve.

If the game is too easy, increase difficulty. If it's still too easy, use "challenge items" like the Admiral's ring.

[P.]

But you get rings, amulets, traits, consumables and archetype skills as you play

[ANCsemi]

Originally posted by P.:

But you get rings, amulets, traits, consumables and archetype skills as you play

And my point is, even after leveling up, upgrading my weapon, and slotting all four rings AND my amulet PURELY for attack, defense, and health, I still killed slower and died faster than at level 1.

[Naamtar]

Originally posted by ^7ja^1co:

Originally posted by Nakaris:

To make it short yes your right :praisesun:

now comes the but
you can overcome it with broken mechanics at the moment balance is part wise fine on nightmare but cant say for sure because testing with no boss rush mode, functioning dummys and filter for rings maked testing a pain in the ass.:stress::stress::stress:

What are you going to do when they keep nerfing weapons and patching out all those broken mechanics so you got nothing left?

They're not going to do this much if Remnant 1 is any indicator. They nerf stuff that is inherently broken (Enigma will always be broken by design though) but they don't take a nerf bat to the game.

Remnant 1 is a very well balanced game, even though they've had all the time they would have needed to make it a nerf fest.

Just play the game and have fun instead of thinking worst case scenario.

[SilverLight]

Originally posted by ANCsemi:

And my point is, even after leveling up, upgrading my weapon, and slotting all four rings AND my amulet PURELY for attack, defense, and health, I still killed slower and died faster than at level 1.

Using only your gun, not using the suite of skills and mods you've unlocked from progressing. So, if we ignore the multitude of game mechanics other than raw attack and defense, the enemies scale enough to keep pace with the players. I fail to see the problem.

[Kurtino]

Originally posted by ANCsemi:

The solution would be scaling the worlds linearly in the order in which you encounter them, independantly of player level or gear.

For example, you go
N'Erud - Labyrinth - Yaesha - Losomn

N'Erud - PL 0
Labyrinth - PL 5
Yaesha - PL 10
Losomn - PL 15
Ashen - PL 20

If you level as you complete the game (as you should), then your level-ups either put you ahead of the curve or behind, depending on how hard you want to grind, and how powerful you want your character to be before you move on.

The curve doesn't move WITH you, keeping you running in place (but falling behind).

Alternatively, you feel that's too hard because you might not be at PL 20 by the end of the game. Okay, make the scaling 3 - 6 - 9 - 12 - 15.

This ensures that by the end, you can be either MORE POWERFUL than the ratio you began with, or less powerful if you so desire.

If you actually want to feel powerful, go back to world 1 later, and you'll still notice the power difference that this system has, without the crippling notion that no matter what, the enemies in your new world will be stronger than you, and you've been wasting your levels and upgrades just falling behind the ever-moving curve.

If the game is too easy, increase difficulty. If it's still too easy, use "challenge items" like the Admiral's ring.

Are we sure the game does none of this? Has anyone tested not touching power level at all and seeing if enemies remain completely static? Both systems could exist at the same time technically.

[Nightsbane]

Yeah enemy damage scaling per level should get cut by half or we should get two - four more ring slots or something. We cant even upgrade armor so wtf is the point of their damage going up so high

[$$Billionaire Trash$$]

Originally posted by ANCsemi:

[TL;DR] The result is that with almost 50% more health and 65% more armor, two archetypes, and all ring and charm slots full, I still die faster and kill slower than a player on the same difficulty, in the same area, at level 1.

This is a response to my other post about enemies getting stronger every time you level up or upgrade your guns. I decided to stop arguing with dumb people defending a dumb idea, and just made a video instead to showcase my point.

So here it is - dynamic enemy scaling alongside player leveling is a HORRIBLE mechanic in a game where players want to feel like they're progressing. You're on a treadmill that just gets faster every time you upgrade your character.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJz3sYiBevg


Synopsis:

I rolled two of the same world, same difficulty, same armor, same weapon.
One character at Power Level 1, the other at Power Level 16.

Then I fought the same enemy, and compared damage dealt and damage taken.


Lvl 1:

Buffs:
(none)

Stats:
106 Health
68 Armor

Time to Kill:
14 hits (1 crit)
Time to Die:
~3.25 hits


Lvl 16:

Buffs:
+30% Armor
+15 Health
-5% Incoming Damage
+15% All Damage
+10 Health / +10 Armor

Stats:
152 Health
107.9 Armor

Time to Kill:
15 hits (1 crit)
Time to Die:
~3.1 hits (with 8 Regrowth & 10 Triage)


This is NOT a good mechanic, as there is no sense of player progression. The numbers get bigger, but the enemies are always one step ahead.

Original Thread:
https://steamcommunity.com/app/1282100/discussions/0/3807282428856531914/?tscn=1691184183

Yes, this is literally how most every game works as you level up. Not everything is a conspiracy. Imagine not using the expanding tools, archetypes, and abilities at your disposal as you level up, making you stronger, if you improve your skill. This game isn't a power fantasy, if you want that, you're in the wrong genre.

Also, imagine playing a squishy archetype and not realize that..most squishy character become even squishier late game unless.

[KoD]

People who say "but I do more dmg now than before upgrading" are the same ones that see no problem in government printing money and creating inflation. If you do double dmg but the enemy tripled hp, you actually do less dmg. Hard, I know, but try to keep up with the common sense.

[Pocket Dog]

Originally posted by Lelensko:

What would the alternative be

Moving to a system in which enemies have level/power ranges that are dependant on the area/world they're in, which is what older arpgs (Diablo 2, for example) did, or nerfing the aggressive level scaling a bit. Diablo 4 originally had very aggressive level scaling - it was 1:1 - and it often felt like one was treading water, even with finding better gear and constantly leveling up one's character. It was annoying, as any sense of progression was nullified to "keep enemies relevant". What's the point of leveling and equipping 'better' gear if it ultimately doesn't mean anything? Enough players complained, rightfully so, and Blizzard nerfed the level scaling in their last patch. Enemies can now fall up to 5 levels below the player's level.

[Terepin]

Originally posted by A P O 1 1 0ⁿ:

Yes, this is literally how most every game works as you level up. Not everything is a conspiracy. Imagine not using the expanding tools, archetypes, and abilities at your disposal as you level up, making you stronger, if you improve your skill. This game isn't a power fantasy, if you want that, you're in the wrong genre.

Then somehow I managed to keep avoiding such games my entire life. Never in my life did I play a game in which enemies scaled with me. And I'm playing games since Amiga 500.

[$$Billionaire Trash$$]

Originally posted by KoD:

People who say "but I do more dmg now than before upgrading" are the same ones that see no problem in government printing money and creating inflation. If you do double dmg but the enemy tripled hp, you actually do less dmg. Hard, I know, but try to keep up with the common sense.

If you do double damage, have 2 active abilities that buff damage, rings that buff damage, mutators, etc etc, as you should have been seeking and building while playing through the game, you do more damage. Hard, I know, but try to keep up.

[$$Billionaire Trash$$]

Originally posted by Pocket Dog:

Originally posted by Lelensko:

What would the alternative be

Enough players complained, rightfully so, and Blizzard nerfed the level scaling in their last patch. Enemies can now fall up to 5 levels below the player's level.

Wow, that sounds like a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ snoozefest now. The game was already easy.

[Videl]

It was same in R1. Just don't upgrade your weapons and you be at 10-11 gs.