WHY, why ruin DR Developers?!

[Imperium]

I dont understand this, I just finally made a tank build that could take a few hits and I can enjoy clearing content on higher difficulties and they completely DESTROYED DR, Running 300 armor with DR rings and Bulwark stacks and faking cubes on nightmare can one shot me with their rush. Its faking nonsense. We dont all want to perfect dodge everything while killing spongy ass higher difficulty bosses that do nonstop AOE... so frustrated with this patch it ruined my fun and there was no reason to do this, Tank builds where not threatening game balance.

[Malidictus]

Originally posted by Imperium:

Well I am sure on survivor it still offers some protection, but on higher difficulties when you actually needed protection, it no longer has any effect, since enemies hit so hard, even with 80% reduction alot of attacks can still one shots the player

Apropos of nothing, but if this is true then high-difficulty balance is absolutely out of whack. In order for an attack to kill you in one hit at 80% damage resistance, it means that attack must be doing over 5 times the player's hit points in damage, which is... absurd? This is Warframe levels of numbers bloat.

[Postman Pat]

Originally posted by Kappa:

Originally posted by Kashra Fall:

Higher difficulties, DR should be worthless though, nothing more than saving you from a 1 shot. You should not, in anyway shape or form be able to face tank anything on apocalypse. You have to dodge, even in heavier armor setups.

Exactly.

But I do understand that being suddenly forbidden from tanking ( if the player opt out to facetank rather than properly learn the enemy pattern and dodge them, for the whole game ) and somehow "forced", if at high diff, to properly dodge, could be pretty frustrating.

What I meant to say is that DR shouldn't have been a thing since the release, indirectly pushing people to play the game using dodges in a proper way rather than stacking up modifiers.

No. If heavy armor is going to put a penalty on your stamina consumption, iframes, and recovery times, then it SHOULD matter - even on Apocalypse. Maybe super heavy armor should take 3 hits to die in, and other armors 2 or 1 - but with the penalties that come using heavy armor, you should actually get something out of it. The scaling in the game and difficulties is totally whacky. There's no incentive to use any of the bulwark or shield systems because you are paper thin on higher difficulties but enemies are paper thin on lower difficulties.

Not even SwordSaint or Owl are as cruel as this game can be. And it seems so weird, because this game does seem like has some really cool systems or build possibilities, except they're nearly all useless when it matters. Who cares if there are 50 mods when only 20 of them can even effect bosses. Who cares if there are 20 armor sets and 20 relics and relic fragments when it takes 1 hit to die. What is the point of a "build" in this context?

[Kai]

Basically the number after all reduction is over 160 damage, I wonder what is the real base damage of enemies in this game since all difficulty seems to use a multiplier.

You'd think that for apocalypse mode they impose something other than simply higher damage multipliers on monsters, I wonder why they don't use 'true' damage in addition to regular damage that can be negated, as in enemies can 'crit' you and bypass a part of your defenses.

[Kappa]

Originally posted by Postman Pat:

Originally posted by Kappa:

Exactly.

But I do understand that being suddenly forbidden from tanking ( if the player opt out to facetank rather than properly learn the enemy pattern and dodge them, for the whole game ) and somehow "forced", if at high diff, to properly dodge, could be pretty frustrating.

What I meant to say is that DR shouldn't have been a thing since the release, indirectly pushing people to play the game using dodges in a proper way rather than stacking up modifiers.

No. If heavy armor is going to put a penalty on your stamina consumption, iframes, and recovery times, then it SHOULD matter - even on Apocalypse. Maybe super heavy armor should take 3 hits to die in, and other armors 2 or 1 - but with the penalties that come using heavy armor, you should actually get something out of it. The scaling in the game and difficulties is totally whacky. There's no incentive to use any of the bulwark or shield systems because you are paper thin on higher difficulties but enemies are paper thin on lower difficulties.

There would be no incentive to use heavy armors ( and medium ) on the last difficulty.
But this doesn't meant they would be useless in the previous ones.

I can't help but see being able to resist 3 hits, compared to be oneshotted, way too different ( leaving apart it would contribute invalidating the highest difficulty ).

[Postman Pat]

Originally posted by Kappa:

Originally posted by Postman Pat:

No. If heavy armor is going to put a penalty on your stamina consumption, iframes, and recovery times, then it SHOULD matter - even on Apocalypse. Maybe super heavy armor should take 3 hits to die in, and other armors 2 or 1 - but with the penalties that come using heavy armor, you should actually get something out of it. The scaling in the game and difficulties is totally whacky. There's no incentive to use any of the bulwark or shield systems because you are paper thin on higher difficulties but enemies are paper thin on lower difficulties.

There would be no incentive to use heavy armors ( and medium ) on the last difficulty.
But this doesn't meant they would be useless in the previous ones.

I can't help but see being able to resist 3 hits, compared to be oneshotted, way too different ( leaving apart it would contribute invalidating the highest difficulty ).

There already is no incentive to use any armor at all on Apoc, and even most of Nightmare.

[Kai]

Apocalypse should be more rewarding that comes with the risk but a mere 'secret weapons' and higher relic fragments isn't really something that great to work towards unless you just aim to 100% collect everything.

I guess this comes as a issue with not having true NG+ modes where you basically restart the save but things changes slightly the 2nd or 3rd time around with your storyline.

Because Veteran, Nightmare, and Apocalypse doesn't really change much with static monster spawns, nor change up the randomized 'ambush' events when you kill enemies over time in the field.

[Kappa]

Originally posted by Postman Pat:

Originally posted by Kappa:

There would be no incentive to use heavy armors ( and medium ) on the last difficulty.
But this doesn't meant they would be useless in the previous ones.

I can't help but see being able to resist 3 hits, compared to be oneshotted, way too different ( leaving apart it would contribute invalidating the highest difficulty ).

There already is no incentive to use any armor at all on Apoc, and even most of Nightmare.

Using armor in nightmare and I am doing fine ( mark 2 + fortify 10 + 30% DR ).

[Postman Pat]

Originally posted by Kai:

Apocalypse should be more rewarding that comes with the risk but a mere 'secret weapons' and higher relic fragments isn't really something that great to work towards unless you just aim to 100% collect everything.

I guess this comes as a issue with not having true NG+ modes where you basically restart the save but things changes slightly the 2nd or 3rd time around with your storyline.

Because Veteran, Nightmare, and Apocalypse doesn't really change much with static monster spawns, nor change up the randomized 'ambush' events when you kill enemies over time in the field.

Indeed. The whole 4 difficulties thing is flawed. It was flawed in Rem 1 too, and it's a shame to see they left it effectively the same here. It's just more stand-out because in Rem 1 even really bad players had a way to get their damage and QOL stuff all up higher and eventually could toe to toe with apoc. I bet something like 7% of players will finish Apoc in Rem 2.

[Postman Pat]

Originally posted by Kappa:

Originally posted by Postman Pat:

There already is no incentive to use any armor at all on Apoc, and even most of Nightmare.

Using armor in nightmare and I am doing fine ( mark 2 + fortify 10 + 30% DR ).

I used no armor and did fine, too. Call me when you beat NM Anni solo with your heavy armor. :) The point is that it doesn't matter how "I did." It's that "no hit simulator" isn't actually difficulty, but it does take away play options, which is silly.

[Kai]

Originally posted by Postman Pat:

Originally posted by Kappa:

Using armor in nightmare and I am doing fine ( mark 2 + fortify 10 + 30% DR ).

I used no armor and did fine, too. Call me when you beat NM Anni solo with your heavy armor. :) The point is that it doesn't matter how "I did." It's that "no hit simulator" isn't actually difficulty, but it does take away play options, which is silly.

Basically when you are forced to play it the dev's way instead of your own way, it takes the fun away from you.

[Kappa]

Originally posted by Postman Pat:

Originally posted by Kappa:

Using armor in nightmare and I am doing fine ( mark 2 + fortify 10 + 30% DR ).

I used no armor and did fine, too. Call me when you beat NM Anni solo with your heavy armor. :) The point is that it doesn't matter how "I did." It's that "no hit simulator" isn't actually difficulty, but it does take away play options, which is silly.

Doing apo atm.
Did nightmare with 10% DR ( didn't have neither barskin nor blood bond ) but before patch.

I only tried nightweaver coop after patch ( nightmare ) and no oneshot.

I don't know about apo, since I just farmed there and no boss since this patch ( gonna try now ).

[Gucky]

Originally posted by Schalimah:

Pre-patch:
DR from armor capped at 80%.
DR from other sources uncapped.
Both were seemingly multiplicative with eachother.

Post patch:
DR from armor and other sources is now additive like the advanced stat sheet suggests and capps at 80%
The advanced stats sheet will tell you that you have more than 80% but everything over 80 does not have any effect it seems

If this is intended or not, only the devs can say.

Can't be, I ran with 85% DR meaning 50% Armor + 35% others and It was capped at 80%, meaning I didn't get any less damage with even higher Armor or Rings. It worked as intended.
The only that that was bugged is if you had ONE of the 2 values over 80%, then it circumvented the cap.
Now I get approx 2-3 times the damage as before with the same DR.
It can't be multiplicative, since the damage I got didn't change even with 125% total DR.

They change the way DR was calculated and put in the wrong spot of the calculation, thus you get now more damage...maybe either Rings or Armor is now ineffective.
BTW playing on Veteran...

[HatredUnbound]

Originally posted by Kashra Fall:

Originally posted by Imperium:

Well I am sure on survivor it still offers some protection, but on higher difficulties when you actually needed protection, it no longer has any effect, since enemies hit so hard, even with 80% reduction alot of attacks can still one shots the player, infact its to the point where you are simply better off not using armor at all. I pretty strongly feel that gamers should have options for various builds, including tank builds. This doesnt really effect those hardcore players who want to do no hit runs and all that, they would never use a tank build. Its PVE so your personal builds and play style does not effect the community.

My build revolved around max armor, passive regeneration and multiple rings that provided additional protection via bulwark stacks or hp being low enough triggering additional DR stacks. It was in no way immortal, but it allowed me to occasionally make mistakes and still survive the fight. Which is all I really want, I am not a dark souls veteran and its my firsts Dark Souls like game so after beating the game normal way I wanted to try higher difficulties and try all the cool builds people came up with.

Higher difficulties, DR should be worthless though, nothing more than saving you from a 1 shot. You should not, in anyway shape or form be able to face tank anything on apocalypse. You have to dodge, even in heavier armor setups.

The damage of survivor is 100%, veteran is 165%, nightmare is 365% and apoc is 450%. 80% DR isn't going to do much against numbers more than triple what you're packing. The problem was, people were able to get DR up to like 140-160% which broke the DR (In a way) and made them able to take hits they otherwise should not of been able to.

This is silly. If they didn't go out of their way to plug archetypes and build diversity I MIGHT agree with you. But they have a 3 minute video tauting a class that is very difficult to kill and even IF they are downed they get a second wind. The implication here is CLEARLY that tanking is viable. But it categorically is not. It is not viable in any difficulty in the game.
Why tank on survivor when I could just play the same meta HUGS build everyone else is running and die in 1-2 less hits but kill the boss 10-15x times faster?
This correlates to every difficulty setting. The developers spent months hyping people up with the archetype videos, the illusion of wanting and encouraging build diversity but instead they essentially scaled everything where you're STILL only able to efficiently play 2-3 different build varieties.
If I want to play on Apocalypse and take 10x longer to kill a boss without particularly having to worry about health management...I don't see the reason I am barred from doing that...especially when they claimed I could.
All it's going to do is get people who don't like that playstyle to either A) use a trainer to just run through Apoc or B) go to the discord and ask a bunch of people who do like that playstyle if they would do it for them.
All in all if GFG wanted people to play that way, archetypes were a stupid idea. Especially a tank one.

[Kashra Fall]

Originally posted by HatredUnbound:

Originally posted by Kashra Fall:

Higher difficulties, DR should be worthless though, nothing more than saving you from a 1 shot. You should not, in anyway shape or form be able to face tank anything on apocalypse. You have to dodge, even in heavier armor setups.

The damage of survivor is 100%, veteran is 165%, nightmare is 365% and apoc is 450%. 80% DR isn't going to do much against numbers more than triple what you're packing. The problem was, people were able to get DR up to like 140-160% which broke the DR (In a way) and made them able to take hits they otherwise should not of been able to.

This is silly. If they didn't go out of their way to plug archetypes and build diversity I MIGHT agree with you. But they have a 3 minute video tauting a class that is very difficult to kill and even IF they are downed they get a second wind. The implication here is CLEARLY that tanking is viable. But it categorically is not. It is not viable in any difficulty in the game.
Why tank on survivor when I could just play the same meta HUGS build everyone else is running and die in 1-2 less hits but kill the boss 10-15x times faster?
This correlates to every difficulty setting. The developers spent months hyping people up with the archetype videos, the illusion of wanting and encouraging build diversity but instead they essentially scaled everything where you're STILL only able to efficiently play 2-3 different build varieties.
If I want to play on Apocalypse and take 10x longer to kill a boss without particularly having to worry about health management...I don't see the reason I am barred from doing that...especially when they claimed I could.
All it's going to do is get people who don't like that playstyle to either A) use a trainer to just run through Apoc or B) go to the discord and ask a bunch of people who do like that playstyle if they would do it for them.
All in all if GFG wanted people to play that way, archetypes were a stupid idea. Especially a tank one.

And do they have that video on survivor, vet, nightmare, or apocalypse? The difficulties are designed to test you and hiding behind DR isn't/wasn't going to save you. Specific enemies hit stupidly hard, even with high DR. I know people don't want to dodge, but that is why the heavier armor just says "Stamina penalty, slower dodge." it doesn't take it away, it simply makes it more costly to be a last resort. Take a hit, dodge, heal, repeat.

[SpectralFX]

This game is devolving into "go range DPS or die"

I hate it.

Tanks should be able to ... you know, tank a few hits and get the aggro.

And elemental builds should be able... to you know, deal decent amounts of elemental damage.

but right now, its basically use Nightbringer/enigma with ranged DPS class or go broke.