WHY DOES UPGRADING MAKE THE GAME HARDER

[ANCsemi]

EDIT: I've made a video to exhibit the flaws in the dynamic scaling system. To the people saying it's "too hard, git gud." I took my PL 16 character from Nightmare down to Survivor, and enemies were just as spongy.

https://steamcommunity.com/app/1282100/discussions/0/3807282428860286290/

Increasing enemy stats with your gear score means that upgrading your weapons is completely pointless.

Everybody saying "BuT yOu HaVe To UpGrAdE tO kEeP uP wItH EnEmY sCaLiNg" have some serious logical issues.

WHY are the enemies scaling with you at all? That defeats the purpose of upgrading. And forcing you to upgrade weapons just to keep pace with enemy scaling is completely insane; it's like running on a treadmill that just gets faster every time you catch up.

The whole point of leveling and upgrading in games is to make you stronger than the enemies. Not to (uselessly) keep up with a terrible game mechanic.

Besides all that, independent studies (see above) have proven that the enemies always do more damage as a percent of your health as your power level goes up, so in fact you're just falling behind the whole time.

This is a stupid, broken idea.

[Mazzle Dazzle]

Origineel geplaatst door A P O 1 1 0ⁿ:

Origineel geplaatst door Mazzle Dazzle:

Easy, you just get rid of scaling and incentivize players to play on the hardest difficulty they can or with as many modifiers as possible like every other game in this format where people don't complain about scaling.

I see it's your first day of class.

Hmm what did Diablo do again? Oh right difficulty levels that you climbed as soon as you could. What did Chronicon do? Difficulty levels. What did Outriders do? Oh difficulties for all of them? What do countless roguelites do? Oh difficulties as well? What did people complain about most in games like Saga Frontier, FF8, and Elder Scrolls Skyrim? Scaling making the game harder when you level? Seems you have a very dim awareness of reality.

[Squidward]

When you roll a new campaign it should always start at 1 with the first world being 1-7, second 7-14, and the third 15-21. I want to be able to go back and use my un-upgraded gear/archetypes and see how they perform before I decide to dump resources/time into them.

Only Adventure mode should always be scaled.

[ANCsemi]

Origineel geplaatst door A P O 1 1 0ⁿ:

tell me oh wise one, how would you scale the game difficulty in a non-linear game where you can start on one of any of the three worlds. Also, your power scaling is ahead of the enemies, if you keep up with upgrades.

Easily. The worlds scale linearly in the order in which you encounter them, independantly of player level or gear.

For example, you go
N'Erud - Labyrinth - Yaesha - Losomn

N'Erud - PL 0
Labyrinth - PL 5
Yaesha - PL 10
Losomn - PL 15
Ashen - PL 20

If you level as you complete the game (as you should), then your level-ups either put you ahead of the curve or behind, depending on how hard you want to grind, and how powerful you want your character to be before you move on.

The curve doesn't move WITH you, keeping you running in place (but falling behind).

Alternatively, you feel that's too hard because you might not be at PL 20 by the end of the game. Okay, make the scaling 3 - 6 - 9 - 12 - 15.

This ensures that by the end, you can be either MORE POWERFUL than the ratio you began with, or less powerful if you so desire.

You're not stuck infinitely in place, going nowhere fast. And if you actually want to feel powerful, go back to world 1 later, and you'll still notice the power difference that this system has, without the crippling notion that no matter what, the enemies in your new world will be stronger than you, and you've been wasting your levels and upgrades just falling behind the ever-moving curve.

That wise enough for you, oh Condescending One?

[Cryptic Deets]

The reason the level scaling sucks in the sequel is the traits are trash and limited. In Remnant 1 you could max out ALL your traits and they were actually something you wanted "Increased ranged damaged, Increased elemental damage, increased status effect" ETC. In this game we have what, 4 traits that buff summons? Are you frigging kidding me? Grey health recovery time? 1.2s IF YOU MAX IT? WHAT THE HELL IS THAT. No one wants these garbage traits. Also we are capped at 60 total points (65 with the new patch). The power fantasy and balance are just all over the ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ place. Seeing how they decided to nerf guns this patch with zero buffs to other weapons under-performing, only nerfs. Does not bode well...

[Profile]

The scaling sucks but I think a way to fix it would be to limit the scaling depending on the difficulty you're playing on. That'll never happen so might as well just accept the way it is. If I were the devs I'd listen more to the community considering we're the ones buying their game. Can't please everyone but a few tweaks would help. The people saying get gud have no idea how business works. With enough complaints things happen but at this point I think they're happy with how many copies they've sold and won't touch anything.

[WolfHound]

Origineel geplaatst door Stix Zidinia:

Pretty much every single game ever created where you fight enemies has difficulty scale up with you as you progress. I read that the zones in this game scale to the power level that you were when you first entered the zone, so as you play that zone and improve your stats then you will outpace the enemies. Going back to the first zone after I've played the game for 35 hours and I stomp mudholes in the enemies. When I first started the game those same enemies NUKED me nonstop.

OP does have a point.

Thats not the case when it comes to MMORPGs. You have to stay in your starting zone until you level up enough to move on to the next. Basically each area has a level requirement which you have to level up to.

That not the case in this game. You could probably beat the final boss without upgrading anything because nothing will scale up unless you upgrade.

[Zephon]

Origineel geplaatst door ANCsemi:

Origineel geplaatst door A P O 1 1 0ⁿ:

tell me oh wise one, how would you scale the game difficulty in a non-linear game where you can start on one of any of the three worlds. Also, your power scaling is ahead of the enemies, if you keep up with upgrades.

Easily. The worlds scale linearly in the order in which you encounter them, independantly of player level or gear.

For example, you go
N'Erud - Labyrinth - Yaesha - Losomn

N'Erud - PL 0
Labyrinth - PL 5
Yaesha - PL 10
Losomn - PL 15
Ashen - PL 20

If you level as you complete the game (as you should), then your level-ups either put you ahead of the curve or behind, depending on how hard you want to grind, and how powerful you want your character to be before you move on.

The curve doesn't move WITH you, keeping you running in place (but falling behind).

Alternatively, you feel that's too hard because you might not be at PL 20 by the end of the game. Okay, make the scaling 3 - 6 - 9 - 12 - 15.

This ensures that by the end, you can be either MORE POWERFUL than the ratio you began with, or less powerful if you so desire.

You're not stuck infinitely in place, going nowhere fast. And if you actually want to feel powerful, go back to world 1 later, and you'll still notice the power difference that this system has, without the crippling notion that no matter what, the enemies in your new world will be stronger than you, and you've been wasting your levels and upgrades just falling behind the ever-moving curve.

That wise enough for you, oh Condescending One?

Okay, but what happens when someone rerolls their campaign? does it start over or stay the same.

If it starts over, game is ruined now because 2/3 will be completely trivial each time you reroll.

If it doesn't it's pretty much the same as it is now?

Plus, the whole point of this game is offer a consistent difficulty with even basic enemies are a threat to you.

If you don't like the aspect of the game, that is completely fair, many other games allow you to become OP and faceroll everything, no need to change this one.

[Mazzle Dazzle]

Origineel geplaatst door WolfHound:

Origineel geplaatst door Stix Zidinia:

Pretty much every single game ever created where you fight enemies has difficulty scale up with you as you progress. I read that the zones in this game scale to the power level that you were when you first entered the zone, so as you play that zone and improve your stats then you will outpace the enemies. Going back to the first zone after I've played the game for 35 hours and I stomp mudholes in the enemies. When I first started the game those same enemies NUKED me nonstop.

OP does have a point.

Thats not the case when it comes to MMORPGs. You have to stay in your starting zone until you level up enough to move on to the next. Basically each area has a level requirement which you have to level up to.

That not the case in this game. You could probably beat the final boss without upgrading anything because nothing will scale up unless you upgrade.

That was actually what everyone did in the first game which is why they force scaling with archetypes. That said, now that you can swap archetypes freely, it actually is easier than ever to ensure your archetypes don't level too high and keep cheating the scaling and keeping it down as you acquire rings and equipment to build non-scaled power.

[Sgt.JESUS]

You want a easy game, level traits and archetypes, keep your weapons at level 10 and you have it, same as the first game. The problem is always the same, people just rush the weapon upgrades and suddenly they dont have the traits or equipment to face the boss. I think they put 4 rings slots so the traits wont do everything, hence the low cap, they fix this in this patch by giving the stone unlimited uses, so experimet away, i dont like the low cap either, some traits i will never get.

[ANCsemi]

Origineel geplaatst door Thanks:

Origineel geplaatst door ANCsemi:

Easily. The worlds scale linearly in the order in which you encounter them, independantly of player level or gear.

For example, you go
N'Erud - Labyrinth - Yaesha - Losomn

N'Erud - PL 0
Labyrinth - PL 5
Yaesha - PL 10
Losomn - PL 15
Ashen - PL 20

If you level as you complete the game (as you should), then your level-ups either put you ahead of the curve or behind, depending on how hard you want to grind, and how powerful you want your character to be before you move on.

The curve doesn't move WITH you, keeping you running in place (but falling behind).

Alternatively, you feel that's too hard because you might not be at PL 20 by the end of the game. Okay, make the scaling 3 - 6 - 9 - 12 - 15.

This ensures that by the end, you can be either MORE POWERFUL than the ratio you began with, or less powerful if you so desire.

You're not stuck infinitely in place, going nowhere fast. And if you actually want to feel powerful, go back to world 1 later, and you'll still notice the power difference that this system has, without the crippling notion that no matter what, the enemies in your new world will be stronger than you, and you've been wasting your levels and upgrades just falling behind the ever-moving curve.

That wise enough for you, oh Condescending One?

Okay, but what happens when someone rerolls their campaign? does it start over or stay the same.

If it starts over, game is ruined now because 2/3 will be completely trivial each time you reroll.

If it doesn't it's pretty much the same as it is now?

Plus, the whole point of this game is offer a consistent difficulty with even basic enemies are a threat to you.

If you don't like the aspect of the game, that is completely fair, many other games allow you to become OP and faceroll everything, no need to change this one.

What do you mean? If the game becomes too easy after you beat it, that's when you re-roll at a higher difficulty, with your geared character.

It implies that in the difficulty descriptions. "Not recommended for new players" or "recommended for geared characters."

Again, the point of leveling up is to make the player feel, and become, more powerful than the enemies they're facing. If the enemies just level up with you, then they're more dangerous to a geared player on a higher difficulty than they are to a new character on that same difficulty, as they haven't been scaled up yet. So again, what's the point of leveling? You're always either with, or behind the curve.

If the game is too easy, increase difficulty.

If the game is still too easy on the hardest difficulty, then that's where "challenge items" like Admiral's ring come in.

If the community as a whole decides the game is too easy or too hard on easiest or hardest, that's where Balancing tweaks come in.

Either way, this notion of running in place to keep the enemies either the same exact level, or mildly stronger than you, literally makes the entire level-up system pointless.

[Mr.C.]

Origineel geplaatst door Danlight:

When you roll a new campaign it should always start at 1 with the first world being 1-7, second 7-14, and the third 15-21. I want to be able to go back and use my un-upgraded gear/archetypes and see how they perform before I decide to dump resources/time into them.

Only Adventure mode should always be scaled.

THIS !

[Ten4]

just use mods. problems solved make sure you turn on open mutiplayer so people come on here and cry.

[CodyShaffer1025]

Scaling itself isnt a problem, its the unupgradable armor being unable to keep up thats the issue. its basically tissue paper.

[Dregora]

Origineel geplaatst door Mazzle Dazzle:

Origineel geplaatst door A P O 1 1 0ⁿ:

I see it's your first day of class.

Hmm what did Diablo do again? Oh right difficulty levels that you climbed as soon as you could. What did Chronicon do? Difficulty levels. What did Outriders do? Oh difficulties for all of them? What do countless roguelites do? Oh difficulties as well? What did people complain about most in games like Saga Frontier, FF8, and Elder Scrolls Skyrim? Scaling making the game harder when you level? Seems you have a very dim awareness of reality.

Diablo used level scaling, Skyrim uses partial level scaling. I'm not entirely sure what point you're making here?

There's still level scaling.

So those games really didn't fix the problem. Level scaling is generally just not fun in rpgs. Personally speaking.

[Kai]

The problem here is that you kinda need to scale up because your archetype forces you to. Once you get a secondary engram and started leveling it up, you'll push beyond lv10 power levels.

This is why some players try to beat the campaign at lower power levels because reaching Ashen Wasteland and meeting annihilation, you can max out your weapon level instantly at ward 13 before fighting him and gain a massive advantage.