One shot mechanics are not fun

[Vatolicious]

Obviously everyone will just comment "Git gud". Whatever,

My point is not that its too hard, its that its not fun or interesting. The first game was mostly simple bosses who spawned endless extra adds into the fight. People complained about that, but at least you could build accordingly, and it kept things hectic and intense.

Seemingly this game has replaced extra adds with one shot mechanics. Most bosses have them, many have 2-3. They are not usually very telegraphed or visible as being powerful. Typically if games mean to include those sorts of attacks they are visually unique in some way, and there may be an in fiction way to avoid it or prevent it.

Relying on one shot mechanics for difficulty is very reductive. What benefit is heavy armor or health regen? The majority of build decisions only effect the open world experience, and every boss fight seems to just be, wear light armor, and put on archetypes that you can nuke the boss quickly.

Sha'Hala is a really well designed fight with a ton of different phases. Absolutely does not need one shot mechanics. There is plenty of damage to avoid. Legion is very cool and requires good timing and positioning. Does it really need a one shot blast wave? In my opinion remove the one shot mechanics and increase the damage of other abilities. Force us to choose between damage and survivability. This will encourage more build and gearing diversity.

[Dootslayer]

Most?
Please do name those “ most bosses” because after 60 hours I only encountered two and one was likely an armor issue

[Grimzy]

Every one-shot mech can be avoided, so it is literally a "get gud" situation.

[innoecent]

What difficulty are you even on?

[Harris]

Originally posted by Dootslayer:

Please do name those “ most bosses”

The most toxic bosses include Nightweaver, Annihilation, Red Prince, Venom, that labyrinth where walls one-shot you unless you memorize their movement patterns, then that pond thing with tentacles... Do I honestly need to continue or did I get the point across?

Originally posted by Grimzy:

Every one-shot mech can be avoided, so it is literally a "get gud" situation.

The fact it technically COULD be avoided does not mean anything.

Originally posted by Vatolicious:

My point is not that its too hard, its that its not fun or interesting.

Yep, it's not hard per se, it's just tedious and unfun to engage with. But people will disagree with you, because obviously definitions of fun are different. Some enjoy to be treated unfairly, and some are simply better at dodging mechanics than others.

Originally posted by Vatolicious:

Relying on one shot mechanics for difficulty is very reductive. What benefit is heavy armor or health regen?

No benefit whatsoever. The only factor to your success is how good you are at dodge mechanics, meaning that your armor, weapons, archetypes are absolutely irrelevant - you can beat anything in a theoretical scenario where you just avoid getting hit.

Of course, this is terrible game design because all it accomplishes is undoing of RPG elements, as well as any semblance of roles in the party - tanks are irrelevant because no build is able to facetank damage for more than a few hits, and healers are irrelevant because they are only able to heal so much due to skill cooldowns and relic charges limit; ultimately leading to what you said - damage is the only relevant stat.

To sum it up, Remnant 2 is simply poorly designed game that is unfun to play as soon as you understand how its mechanics work. It feels largely a clone of the first game, but rather than improving on its foundations, it actually made it worse by adding "muh hardcore" everywhere, to the detriment of everything else.

[Grimzy]

Originally posted by Harris:

Originally posted by Dootslayer:

Please do name those “ most bosses”

The most toxic bosses include Nightweaver, Annihilation, Red Prince, Venom, that labyrinth where walls one-shot you unless you memorize their movement patterns, then that pond thing with tentacles... Do I honestly need to continue or did I get the point across?

Originally posted by Grimzy:

Every one-shot mech can be avoided, so it is literally a "get gud" situation.

The fact it technically COULD be avoided does not mean anything.

Originally posted by Vatolicious:

My point is not that its too hard, its that its not fun or interesting.

Yep, it's not hard per se, it's just tedious and unfun to engage with. But people will disagree with you, because obviously definitions of fun are different. Some enjoy to be treated unfairly, and some are simply better at dodging mechanics than others.

Originally posted by Vatolicious:

Relying on one shot mechanics for difficulty is very reductive. What benefit is heavy armor or health regen?

No benefit whatsoever. The only factor to your success is how good you are at dodge mechanics, meaning that your armor, weapons, archetypes are absolutely irrelevant - you can beat anything in a theoretical scenario where you just avoid getting hit.

Of course, this is terrible game design because all it accomplishes is undoing of RPG elements, as well as any semblance of roles in the party - tanks are irrelevant because no build is able to facetank damage for more than a few hits, and healers are irrelevant because they are only able to heal so much due to skill cooldowns are relic charges limit; ultimately leading to what you said - damage is the only relevant stat.

To sum it up, Remnant 2 is simply poorly designed game that is unfun to play as soon as you understand how its mechanics works. It feels largely a clone of the first game, but rather than improving on its, it actually made it worse by adding "muh hardcore" everything, to the detriment of everything else.

One-shot mechanics arent a bad design. They are typically scripted in when you simply fail certain aspects of the boss fight. This is not the only game that has it and definetely not the last.

Point is, you can avoid all of the "one-shot" mechanics very easily. If you fail so, it is not a bad boss design, it is simply you failing to avoid it. Some are avoided through a simple dodge. If you simply cannot dodge a mechanic, that does not mean the boss is hard or bad, it literally means you need more practice and be better.

[Dootslayer]

Originally posted by Harris:

Originally posted by Dootslayer:

Please do name those “ most bosses”

The most toxic bosses include Nightweaver, Annihilation, Red Prince, Venom, that labyrinth where walls one-shot you unless you memorize their movement patterns, then that pond thing with tentacles... Do I honestly need to continue or did I get the point across?

Originally posted by Grimzy:

Every one-shot mech can be avoided, so it is literally a "get gud" situation.

The fact it technically COULD be avoided does not mean anything.

Originally posted by Vatolicious:

My point is not that its too hard, its that its not fun or interesting.

Yep, it's not hard per se, it's just tedious and unfun to engage with. But people will disagree with you, because obviously definitions of fun are different. Some enjoy to be treated unfairly, and some are simply better at dodging mechanics than others.

Originally posted by Vatolicious:

Relying on one shot mechanics for difficulty is very reductive. What benefit is heavy armor or health regen?

No benefit whatsoever. The only factor to your success is how good you are at dodge mechanics, meaning that your armor, weapons, archetypes are absolutely irrelevant - you can beat anything in a theoretical scenario where you just avoid getting hit.

Of course, this is terrible game design because all it accomplishes is undoing of RPG elements, as well as any semblance of roles in the party - tanks are irrelevant because no build is able to facetank damage for more than a few hits, and healers are irrelevant because they are only able to heal so much due to skill cooldowns and relic charges limit; ultimately leading to what you said - damage is the only relevant stat.

To sum it up, Remnant 2 is simply poorly designed game that is unfun to play as soon as you understand how its mechanics work. It feels largely a clone of the first game, but rather than improving on its foundations, it actually made it worse by adding "muh hardcore" everywhere, to the detriment of everything else.

You didn’t, annihilation doesn’t one shot nor does the pond boss, red prince neither, venom has only one extremely high damaging attack that’s easy to dodge and the nightweaver is slow in phase 2.

I mean this in a constructive way, this is a skill issue.
Out of all you mentioned I really only had trouble with venom on my nightmare run, that boss is my Achilles heel

[Grimacetexas9]

the nightweaved having a oneshot is annoying for the wall attack but at least you know not to get close to walls or always be running when next to one. the grab attack that hit VERY early in the animation that is also pretty much a oneshot if you dont have heavy armor or play on apo/cata is annoying, having to dodge a very punishing attack on a very tanky boss multiple times and getting hit once means having to do both phases again is not fun, the only unfun boss i've had where dying to it made me wanna die.
Other were kinda okay the labyrinth cube wasnt very fun too but at least you can improve very easly. nightweaver was just annoying, only beat her because i had the challenger revive to survive the grab.

[Harris]

Originally posted by Dootslayer:

I mean this in a constructive way, this is a skill issue.

How the fact I am not ENJOYING this kind of design got anything to do with skill or lack of thereof? Can you possibly imagine a situation where someone can do something, but actually hates doing it?

Originally posted by Grimzy:

If you simply cannot dodge a mechanic, that does not mean the boss is hard or bad, it literally means you need more practice and be better.

Yes, well, you've just confirmed what I said - what the game boils down to is your ability to dodge.

You can unlock every weapon, every archetype and have the most powerful build the game would possibly allow - but that doesn't mean a thing if you can't dodge well.

And the other way around - if you're able to dodge very well, other mechanics and values like the mentioned armor or health regen or even your dps become irrelevant - at best they influence the time it's gonna take you.

What we're trying to explain to you is the game must not be based off our ability to dodge while determining success. Because in doing so, it invalidates every other system it has. Who needs tanks, if you just don't take damage? Who needs healers, if you don't take damage? The only relevant stat becomes your dps, and even then only relevant to decide the speed of your progression.

Remnant 2 got actually not a lot to do with being action, RPG or shooter game. It's more of a puzzle game, because your success hinges on memorizing the patterns and then following the single, correct course of action. The labyrinth boss illustrates that the best.

[Johnny]

This guy has a point. Nightweaver is the worst boss in this game.

[Calv]

Originally posted by Johnny:

This guy has a point. Nightweaver is the worst boss in this game.

I'd heard that you can use melee attacks to escape her insta-kill grabs.
Haven't had chance to fight her again yet to test.

[Moriibund]

1 shot mechanics are bad mechanics, you can play a fight perfectly, f- up one time, get grabbed or w/e other bs and you are dead. Doesn't matter if challenger, cat ring, full health... nothing matters, you are just dead. It shouldn't be like that, make it leave you at 1hp, or let things like challenger prime perk get you back up, dog/ team can't even revive. A single mistake should not be what ruins a fight.

[Saint Olaf]

Its kind of the point of these kinds of games. Move along to something else.

[Majere]

Originally posted by Saint Olaf:

Its kind of the point of these kinds of games. Move along to something else.

No, it isn't, not really. This issue is pretty much unique to Remnant, though it might possibly also happen to an extent in Sekiro, not played that one.

For example, compare Annihilation to Malenia in Elden Ring. Both of those are very, very tough bosses which a lot of players struggle to beat. But in ER, there's the option to rejig your character to take Malenia down with a pancake build, Prayerful Strike, Frost bombs, etc. It takes a bit of time investment to re-gear, but the game allows it and Malenia doesn't get more powerful in the meantime.

In Remnant, because of the scaling system and the way some bosses have very high damage output, plus scaling, you simply can't do that. When I first got to Annihilation I was a Challenger with max in the HP trait and Strong Back, with max Shadeskin and the heaviest armour I could get away with for med load, and the first thing that hit me in Phase 2 one-shotted me from full HP.

Remnant, by design, prevents you from gearing or grinding through bosses, something which most 'soulslikes' are specifically designed to support. It means the Let Me Solo Hers of this world can still do their naked unupgraded no-damage runs to show off, whilst the rest of us poor sclubs at least get to see the ending eventually and unlock a few toys.

[Raesha Moondancer]

In remnant gear is indeed pointless, infact upgrading your gear makes you -less- powerfull, the progression actively cripples you as enemies scale higher- specially in higher dificulties.
Ontop of that yeah- bosses go bettewn being a breeze to having BS oneshot mechanics just there to make the fight more tedious- not harder, not more fun.
So whats the point of making healer or a tank? Just go DPS.

[Gul Bjorn]

Gotta learn dodge windows.