Why even have Summoner and Handler?

[The Seventh Son]

This game often feels like the devs would design a boss saying to themselves "How do we counter summons?" There was a boss that would do these screen wide AoE explosions that just one shot summons, lots of flying bosses, and bosses that are too fast for the ranged summon to hit.

I just don't understand why you would create 2 classes revolved around summoning, summon mods, and give us all these items to support summoning, and then just make them obsolete in a boss fight.

FINAL BOSS SPOILERS

This all really came to a head with the final boss. My summons literally had no impact. The boss is both always flying and too fast for the ranged summons to hit. So my dog is just running around doing nothing, and my flyers are trying, but only get the occasional lucky hit cuz the boss moved into the projectile. I can't just use another summon, cuz the other two options are both melee options, which can't hit a flying boss. I'm being punished for playing a combination of classes that you created and presented to me to play as.

I just don't get the purpose this. If you don't want the summons to impact boss fights that much, why the hell even make the classes?

[Neyreyan_Youtube]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von The Seventh Son:

This game often feels like the devs would design a boss saying to themselves "How do we counter summons?" There was a boss that would do these screen wide AoE explosions that just one shot summons, lots of flying bosses, and bosses that are too fast for the ranged summon to hit.

I just don't understand why you would create 2 classes revolved around summoning, summon mods, and give us all these items to support summoning, and then just make them obsolete in a boss fight.

FINAL BOSS SPOILERS

This all really came to a head with the final boss. My summons literally had no impact. The boss is both always flying and too fast for the ranged summons to hit. So my dog is just running around doing nothing, and my flyers are trying, but only get the occasional lucky hit cuz the boss moved into the projectile. I can't just use another summon, cuz the other two options are both melee options, which can't hit a flying boss. I'm being punished for playing a combination of classes that you created and presented to me to play as.

I just don't get the purpose this. If you don't want the summons to impact boss fights that much, why the hell even make the classes?

do you know the engineer is also a summoner?:D yeah, the handler is only strong in the begining.

Classes like the medic and handler are useless later, they are only meant to support a party.
The same could be said about challenger and hunter somewhat later.
The advanced archetypes are supposed to be main classes the basic ones just support or secondary

[Lichrot]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Trichouette:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Lichrot:

At least someone in this forum knows what they're talking about

Well the fact you can change gameplay mid-run is one of the things I enjoy most about this game.
I'm just sad we don't have a loadout system :(
(and that power level scales according to your inventory instead of equipped items/archetype.....)

The game ain't perfect, none of them are, but "this archetype doesn't work against X enemy" really is failure to understand the game's design.

That's not failure in design. That's literally called counter balancing. We see it in every game. A fire sorcerer in diablo isn't going to be viable against fire resistant enemies.

A mage isn't going to easily kill every boss in dark souls due to enemy speed.

You're just outright admitting you have a lack of fundamental knowledge k what balancing is.
Everything being viable just isn't good design. It doesn't make you think about your environment. Learn the game or pick up something easier for you. I've been swapping archetypes, rings, and mods to help me counter enemies.

[Trichouette]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Lichrot:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Trichouette:

Well the fact you can change gameplay mid-run is one of the things I enjoy most about this game.
I'm just sad we don't have a loadout system :(
(and that power level scales according to your inventory instead of equipped items/archetype.....)

The game ain't perfect, none of them are, but "this archetype doesn't work against X enemy" really is failure to understand the game's design.

That's not failure in design. That's literally called counter balancing. We see it in every game. A fire sorcerer in diablo isn't going to be viable against fire resistant enemies.

A mage isn't going to easily kill every boss in dark souls due to enemy speed.

You're just outright admitting you have a lack of fundamental knowledge k what balancing is.
Everything being viable just isn't good design. It doesn't make you think about your environment. Learn the game or pick up something easier for you. I've been swapping archetypes, rings, and mods to help me counter enemies.

I think you misread my post, considering we both agree on the same thing haha

I'm saying "complaining because your build doesn't work as well against all of the enemies is you not understanding how the game wants you to play"

[Grimacetexas9]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Miro Fox:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Trichouette:

archetypes aren't the only thing that make up your build.
Swapping relic / weapons / rings / amulet can make a huge difference.

I just beat the endboss on basic difficulty (survivor I think?) with summoner/hunter.
I was struggling until I switched relic and found something that worked nicely.

no amount of build switching can make that endboss dooable for me.

My ADHD literally just gets overwhelmed and i just stall.

Sensory overload is a problem on that boss.

that is a huge problem i dont have ADHD but i got hit wayy to many times because the boss literally throw everything and anything at you for no reasons and sometimes i will just not dodge because my brain cant process needing to dodge 4 things at once.

[adobo]

What do you mean useless?

Handler support dog can heal you and attack dog can buff your damage. The dog can revive you. You get damage boost from having a dog out because of archetype perks.

Summoner gets HP regen and lets you eat the minions for buffs and healing.

There's more to them than having pets to win the game for you.

[Kazaanh]

Handler provides you with tons of uttility.

Literally free revive, and 3 forms of passive and active buffs. You just don't whitle attack command, let dog stay at your side so he wont die so much.

Also dog in Guard mode is fantastic for taking aggro of ads and sometime boss special attacks ( like lazors )

[Trichouette]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von majikero:

There's more to them than having pets to win the game for you.

I think that's the issue right there.
Players see "I can summon creatures that attack" and all they think about is "they will do the fighting for me".

[Grimacetexas9]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von majikero:

What do you mean useless?

Handler support dog can heal you and attack dog can buff your damage. The dog can revive you. You get damage boost from having a dog out because of archetype perks.

Summoner gets HP regen and lets you eat the minions for buffs and healing.

There's more to them than having pets to win the game for you.

and you can get the hp regen of the summoner from it's trait at level 10, and the dog revive and the summons buffs can be found in the alchemist class. it's not useless but everything they do other classes can do it and better sometimes. sure it's a different playstyle but if you wanna go healer medic and alchemist are much better in that aspect same for buffs.
they arent unique in that aspect. Dog should have some more utility and fliers should get a huge projectile speed increase/hitscan attack to be viable against lots of bosses.

[Grimacetexas9]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Trichouette:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von majikero:

There's more to them than having pets to win the game for you.

I think that's the issue right there.
Players see "I can summon creatures that attack" and all they think about is "they will do the fighting for me".

I dont want my summons to do the game for me, i want my summons to actually do something. if my summons do less than 10% of the boss hp by the end of the fight while they cost me health and a whole archetype why even bother? i could just go gunslinger and have the 6shot do more damage, the engineer and just put my turret down every minute and have it do like 40% of the boss hp by itself, go juggernaut and have the damage buff allow me to do an extra 30% of the boss hp.
Summons dont need to carry, they just need to do their part and they just ... dont.

[adobo]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Grimacetexas9:

and you can get the hp regen of the summoner from it's trait at level 10, and the dog revive and the summons buffs can be found in the alchemist class. it's not useless but everything they do other classes can do it and better sometimes. sure it's a different playstyle but if you wanna go healer medic and alchemist are much better in that aspect same for buffs.
they arent unique in that aspect. Dog should have some more utility and fliers should get a huge projectile speed increase/hitscan attack to be viable against lots of bosses.

The pet classes have enough tools for bossing. Saying they're "useless" is an outright lie. They may not be the best, but that's not the point here. Other classes being better for boss fighting is irrelevant here.

[Trichouette]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Grimacetexas9:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Trichouette:

I think that's the issue right there.
Players see "I can summon creatures that attack" and all they think about is "they will do the fighting for me".

I dont want my summons to do the game for me, i want my summons to actually do something. if my summons do less than 10% of the boss hp by the end of the fight while they cost me health and a whole archetype why even bother? i could just go gunslinger and have the 6shot do more damage, the engineer and just put my turret down every minute and have it do like 40% of the boss hp by itself, go juggernaut and have the damage buff allow me to do an extra 30% of the boss hp.
Summons dont need to carry, they just need to do their part and they just ... dont.

Do you buff them by hitting them ?
Do you buff them with relics to increase their damage & health regen ?

That's a 65% damage bonus + 15% crit chance + 50% attack speed + 50% movement speed.
(having the summon health trait also helps a lot)

Having the handler archetype allows you to hit your summons without killing them, and the dog can take aggro + buff defense or simply heal/buff damage.

[Darkrayne]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Grimacetexas9:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Trichouette:

I think that's the issue right there.
Players see "I can summon creatures that attack" and all they think about is "they will do the fighting for me".

I dont want my summons to do the game for me, i want my summons to actually do something. if my summons do less than 10% of the boss hp by the end of the fight while they cost me health and a whole archetype why even bother? i could just go gunslinger and have the 6shot do more damage, the engineer and just put my turret down every minute and have it do like 40% of the boss hp by itself, go juggernaut and have the damage buff allow me to do an extra 30% of the boss hp.
Summons dont need to carry, they just need to do their part and they just ... dont.

Go take a look at all the buffs you get for sacrificing your minions, which can have over 75%+ uptime (for the damage one) if you do it right. I can not believe so many people are just ignoring that class mechanic.