Why even have Summoner and Handler?

[The Seventh Son]

This game often feels like the devs would design a boss saying to themselves "How do we counter summons?" There was a boss that would do these screen wide AoE explosions that just one shot summons, lots of flying bosses, and bosses that are too fast for the ranged summon to hit.

I just don't understand why you would create 2 classes revolved around summoning, summon mods, and give us all these items to support summoning, and then just make them obsolete in a boss fight.

FINAL BOSS SPOILERS

This all really came to a head with the final boss. My summons literally had no impact. The boss is both always flying and too fast for the ranged summons to hit. So my dog is just running around doing nothing, and my flyers are trying, but only get the occasional lucky hit cuz the boss moved into the projectile. I can't just use another summon, cuz the other two options are both melee options, which can't hit a flying boss. I'm being punished for playing a combination of classes that you created and presented to me to play as.

I just don't get the purpose this. If you don't want the summons to impact boss fights that much, why the hell even make the classes?

[Zendrag0n]

Originally posted by Miro Fox:

Originally posted by The Seventh Son:

This game often feels like the devs would design a boss saying to themselves "How do we counter summons?" There was a boss that would do these screen wide AoE explosions that just one shot summons, lots of flying bosses, and bosses that are too fast for the ranged summon to hit.

I just don't understand why you would create 2 classes revolved around summoning, summon mods, and give us all these items to support summoning, and then just make them obsolete in a boss fight.

FINAL BOSS SPOILERS

This all really came to a head with the final boss. My summons literally had no impact. The boss is both always flying and too fast for the ranged summons to hit. So my dog is just running around doing nothing, and my flyers are trying, but only get the occasional lucky hit cuz the boss moved into the projectile. I can't just use another summon, cuz the other two options are both melee options, which can't hit a flying boss. I'm being punished for playing a combination of classes that you created and presented to me to play as.

I just don't get the purpose this. If you don't want the summons to impact boss fights that much, why the hell even make the classes?

as someone who crutched on Summoner & Handler. i disagree.

The fliers attack very often, and with Soul Link, they literally heal you constantly.
The dog has a Free Revive, and will spam revives on allies if you die.
The Reaver is such a powerhouse that doesn't even matter if its flying or not as its ranged attack EXPLDOES.
and the dog has a AOE 20% damage buff on a short cooldown.

I main running Handler, Medic, and Engineer (till my data got "corrupted" [apparently a common issue]) Handler has also a AOE heal over time that has saved my friends and my hide more times than I would like to admit. Healer has an AOE that revives allies without using dragon hearts and does really fast regen. Summoner I had problems with simply because of the health regen didn't work to well and i didn't get to max level with it so yeah.

[Kappa]

Summoner as secondary archetype is pretty cool with healer.

[Trichouette]

Originally posted by Kappa:

Summoner as secondary archetype is pretty cool with healer.

summoner + healer is pretty dope
You can heal your summons to blow them up and re-summon them faster.

[Rena Ichigawa]

Originally posted by Trichouette:

Remnant (both games actually) are designed around you changing your build to defeat the enemies.
You can't expect to play something that will work perfectly in 100% of the situations.
It's like all these people on the forum crying because they want to play melee only but so many enemies are flying...

Some gameplay are better against certain bosses, and some are weaker.

To be fair, once you beat the game once on apoc you can do just that with melee. World's edge is possibly one of the most broken weapons ive ever used in a game, and its so much fun.

[The Seventh Son]

Originally posted by Darkrayne:

You can switch out the archetypes any time you need if they aren't useful for certain bosses or areas. Just one of the three main reasons the level more archetypes.

Originally posted by Trichouette:

Remnant (both games actually) are designed around you changing your build to defeat the enemies.
You can't expect to play something that will work perfectly in 100% of the situations.
It's like all these people on the forum crying because they want to play melee only but so many enemies are flying...

Some gameplay are better against certain bosses, and some are weaker.

Uhh what? The first game wasn't designed like that at all. I played through it melee only.

But more on the point, if I was the Gunslinger I would be able to go through the game with one build and never worry about changing it up cuz every boss is just fine if you're building around your gun. It's when you try other stuff that suddenly "Oh, the game is designed around switching up y our build for bosses."

No it's not. You want it to be, but it isn't. Gunslinger, Engineer, Hunter, et al can be played through the entire way without any changes just fine. Handler and Summoner cannot.

God what a bad take.

[Trichouette]

Originally posted by The Seventh Son:

Originally posted by Darkrayne:

You can switch out the archetypes any time you need if they aren't useful for certain bosses or areas. Just one of the three main reasons the level more archetypes.

Originally posted by Trichouette:

Remnant (both games actually) are designed around you changing your build to defeat the enemies.
You can't expect to play something that will work perfectly in 100% of the situations.
It's like all these people on the forum crying because they want to play melee only but so many enemies are flying...

Some gameplay are better against certain bosses, and some are weaker.

Uhh what? The first game wasn't designed like that at all. I played through it melee only.

But more on the point, if I was the Gunslinger I would be able to go through the game with one build and never worry about changing it up cuz every boss is just fine if you're building around your gun. It's when you try other stuff that suddenly "Oh, the game is designed around switching up y our build for bosses."

No it's not. You want it to be, but it isn't. Gunslinger, Engineer, Hunter, et al can be played through the entire way without any changes just fine. Handler and Summoner cannot.

God what a bad take.

Obviously hunter & gunslinger are going to have an easier time against most of the content since they just focus on dealing ranged damage.

I never said you can't beat the whole game with any build. I said some encounters are easier if you swap your build.
I'm playing hunter and obviously I'm having a hard time against enemies that don't have a weakspot or that move around very fast. I also have an issue against groups of enemies because I use a carbine.
Meanwhile my summons don't have issues with enemies without a weakspot or against groups.

You can play remnant: from the ashes melee only, but you can't tell me fighting the dreamer is as easy as fighting singe.

(an archetype doesn't make a whole build)

You said you struggled against the last boss as summoner. Well my summons helped me quite a lot. I kept them alive and buffed them, and they did great. (flyers)

[The Seventh Son]

Originally posted by Trichouette:

Obviously hunter & gunslinger are going to have an easier time against most of the content since they just focus on dealing ranged damage.

You recognize that the classes that are focused on guns are more viable than the other classes, yet you're still arguing with me. Hey man, like person to person. Self reflect. Look at what I'm saying and what you're saying. It's not a good thing that Hunter and Gunslinger can go through the game just fine, but summoner and hunter don't do anything against the last boss. I think if you sat down and really considered what's being said here, you'd see that. You just like the game and don't want to hear people complaining about it. Which I get, but I think it's causing you to take a contrarian position you don't actually believe.

[Trichouette]

Originally posted by The Seventh Son:

Originally posted by Trichouette:

Obviously hunter & gunslinger are going to have an easier time against most of the content since they just focus on dealing ranged damage.

You recognize that the classes that are focused on guns are more viable than the other classes, yet you're still arguing with me. Hey man, like person to person. Self reflect. Look at what I'm saying and what you're saying. It's not a good thing that Hunter and Gunslinger can go through the game just fine, but summoner and hunter don't do anything against the last boss. I think if you sat down and really considered what's being said here, you'd see that. You just like the game and don't want to hear people complaining about it. Which I get, but I think it's causing you to take a contrarian position you don't actually believe.

There's a difference between saying "these archetypes have an easier time with less specialized gears" and "these archetypes straight up can't do anything".
And well, I guess you decided to read the first sentence of my post and skip the rest...

[Forge Master]

The Final Boss is garbage. Boss gets three lives, you get one... Are we sure we aren't the boss and he's the good guy?

[Darkrayne]

Originally posted by The Seventh Son:

Originally posted by Darkrayne:

You can switch out the archetypes any time you need if they aren't useful for certain bosses or areas. Just one of the three main reasons the level more archetypes.

Originally posted by Trichouette:

Remnant (both games actually) are designed around you changing your build to defeat the enemies.
You can't expect to play something that will work perfectly in 100% of the situations.
It's like all these people on the forum crying because they want to play melee only but so many enemies are flying...

Some gameplay are better against certain bosses, and some are weaker.

Uhh what? The first game wasn't designed like that at all. I played through it melee only.

But more on the point, if I was the Gunslinger I would be able to go through the game with one build and never worry about changing it up cuz every boss is just fine if you're building around your gun. It's when you try other stuff that suddenly "Oh, the game is designed around switching up y our build for bosses."

No it's not. You want it to be, but it isn't. Gunslinger, Engineer, Hunter, et al can be played through the entire way without any changes just fine. Handler and Summoner cannot.

God what a bad take.

All I'm reading is that you can't be bothered to adapt to different situations. That's cool if that's how you like to play but don't act like the option isn't there and then claim the archetypes are broken.

Play a different archetype combo and never change if the Handler/Summoner combo isn't for you. A tanky Handler/Summoner build slays the other archetypes for solo-ability in most situations. If it performed as strong for bosses then it would simply be the meta and there'd be no point playing anything else.

[The Seventh Son]

Originally posted by Darkrayne:

All I'm reading is that you can't be bothered to adapt to different situations. That's cool if that's how you like to play but don't act like the option isn't there and then claim the archetypes are broken.

Play a different archetype combo and never change if the Handler/Summoner combo isn't for you. A tanky Handler/Summoner build slays the other archetypes for solo-ability in most situations. If it performed as strong for bosses then it would simply be the meta and there'd be no point playing anything else.

That's not my complaint. The final boss isn't hard.... it has three moves and dodge check sequence lol. My complaint is that summons don't do anything against it. That there's no point in the summoner class for the final boss. I have an entire archetype just wasting my slot. If I was something like The Gunslinger I would never run into this issue, but here we are with the summoner.

Like the fight against it was effectively like I had no archetype, and that's a problem. If you can't see that then just stop responding.

[Trichouette]

Originally posted by The Seventh Son:

Originally posted by Darkrayne:

All I'm reading is that you can't be bothered to adapt to different situations. That's cool if that's how you like to play but don't act like the option isn't there and then claim the archetypes are broken.

Play a different archetype combo and never change if the Handler/Summoner combo isn't for you. A tanky Handler/Summoner build slays the other archetypes for solo-ability in most situations. If it performed as strong for bosses then it would simply be the meta and there'd be no point playing anything else.

That's not my complaint. The final boss isn't hard.... it has three moves and dodge check sequence lol. My complaint is that summons don't do anything against it. That there's no point in the summoner class for the final boss. I have an entire archetype just wasting my slot. If I was something like The Gunslinger I would never run into this issue, but here we are with the summoner.

Like the fight against it was effectively like I had no archetype, and that's a problem. If you can't see that then just stop responding.

I used flyers and buffed them with relics + attacking them. They shredded the boss while healing me.

[yuzhonglu]

You're supposed to switch out archetypes on demand.

[Nox]

Originally posted by Trichouette:

I used flyers and buffed them with relics + attacking them. They shredded the boss while healing me.

Against some bosses I load up engineer and summoner and just let the stuff fly.

There isn't much in this game that lasts long against the turret in meth mode.

[Darkrayne]

Originally posted by The Seventh Son:

Originally posted by Darkrayne:

All I'm reading is that you can't be bothered to adapt to different situations. That's cool if that's how you like to play but don't act like the option isn't there and then claim the archetypes are broken.

Play a different archetype combo and never change if the Handler/Summoner combo isn't for you. A tanky Handler/Summoner build slays the other archetypes for solo-ability in most situations. If it performed as strong for bosses then it would simply be the meta and there'd be no point playing anything else.

That's not my complaint. The final boss isn't hard.... it has three moves and dodge check sequence lol. My complaint is that summons don't do anything against it. That there's no point in the summoner class for the final boss. I have an entire archetype just wasting my slot. If I was something like The Gunslinger I would never run into this issue, but here we are with the summoner.

Like the fight against it was effectively like I had no archetype, and that's a problem. If you can't see that then just stop responding.

I'm sure you could switch some rings around and make good use out of sacrificing minions in some way instead. I mean, just the ring that gives you a stack of Bulwark for each minion you have is pretty good on it's own. The dog counts as one too so you'd get 45% damage reduction. Totally depends on what you have found so far though.

I mean, you innately get extra damage, crit chance, healing increase and life steal for each one when you sacrifice them anyway. That's a LOT of buffs and if you only summon one at a time, sacrifice it and don't summon another until the damage buff ends you have a lot of uptime on the buffs. Cooldown is reduced if you summon them and sacrifice immediately. Switch to Attack Dog too for another damage buff.

+70% Ranged Damage, +50% Skill Damage (which wouldn't be useful), +10% Ranged Crit Chance, +5% Skill Crit Chance, +20% Healing, +3% Life Steal minimum and some movement speed.

"effectively like I had no archetype" - Really? You really couldn't see all this included with the archetype?

If you can't see that then stop complaining and go learn how to play the archetype properly.