Collecting traits points was the real longterm appeal for me in Remnant 1

[富士葵 『F U J I _A O I』]

I personally think that the devs insistence on a trait point limit would kill the long term appeal of this game for a fair few players who enjoyed Remnant From the Ashes, including myself.

It was a great feeling seeing your character getting progressively stronger, even with enemy scaling. The feeling of finally being able to be one step ahead of most enemies except bosses was satisfying.

Trait point limit to me really just dampens the feeling of progression in the game in the long term. This limit is especially taxing given that around 30-40 of the trait points will be used up for "Staple" Traits like extra health/stamina skill cd etc.

I'm quite certain its one of the reasons many Remnant 1 players still played the game years after its last DLC. I doubt the Remnant 2 would have as much staying power with players with a this limit. Most will just unlock everything they can, and just stop playing altogether when there's no more post-launch content.

[Penguin]

there's already a mod to be able to get unlimited trait points

[Pocket Dog]

Originally posted by 富士葵 『F U J I _A O I』:

I personally think that the devs insistence on a trait point limit would kill the long term appeal of this game for a fair few players who enjoyed Remnant From the Ashes, including myself.

It was a great feeling seeing your character getting progressively stronger, even with enemy scaling. The feeling of finally being able to be one step ahead of most enemies except bosses was satisfying.

Trait point limit to me really just dampens the feeling of progression in the game in the long term. This limit is especially taxing given that around 30-40 of the trait points will be used up for "Staple" Traits like extra health/stamina skill cd etc.

I'm quite certain its one of the reasons many Remnant 1 players still played the game years after its last DLC. I doubt the Remnant 2 would have as much staying power with players with a this limit. Most will just unlock everything they can, and just stop playing altogether when there's no more post-launch content.

Traits ultimately weren't very important as most of your damage, along with character builds, came from weapons, rings, mods and items. It wasn't difficult to get an edge on enemies in Remnant. It's the same with the sequel. Besides, you still have all of the weapons, armor, mods and such to find for replay value, just like the original. I think Gunfire realized just how superfluous most traits were, which is why they didn't focus on them as a much for Remnant 2 and chose to focus more on archetypes, their skills, and the different items and equipment.

[verarticus]

Something people don't seem to realize is that remnant 2 gives you so much more power than 1 did... sure it's a "60 point limit" but you have 20 others for free in archetype traits, traits only go to 10 instead of 20, they're stronger in general, you gets free perks and a prime perk with your archetypes, you get double the amount of rings, and you get two special skills. Your strength is not being limited at all.

It's also disingenuous to say you were "out-scaling" every boss and area with traits. Did that 1% stamina regen boost from that extra trait point you farmed REALLY help you out?

If you feel the need to level the "base" traits that's on you. You can make up for that with rings instead, or go without. I've never felt the need to rank up any stamina stuff at all.

[Zefar]

Originally posted by verarticus:

Something people don't seem to realize is that remnant 2 gives you so much more power than 1 did... sure it's a "60 point limit" but you have 20 others for free in archetype traits, traits only go to 10 instead of 20, they're stronger in general, you gets free perks and a prime perk with your archetypes, you get double the amount of rings, and you get two special skills. Your strength is not being limited at all.

It's also disingenuous to say you were "out-scaling" every boss and area with traits. Did that 1% stamina regen boost from that extra trait point you farmed REALLY help you out?

If you feel the need to level the "base" traits that's on you. You can make up for that with rings instead, or go without. I've never felt the need to rank up any stamina stuff at all.

https://remnantfromtheashes.wiki.fextralife.com/Traits
It was 20 Stamina regen at max level. Then add in a perk to reduce stamina cost by 20% as well and 50 extra stamina.

Also you got 50 extra health in the first game from the perk where as here it's just 30 points.

You can look at the perks there. They all end up giving a decent bonus.
Now the damage bonus for various stuff are lower but it's because weapons can be pretty powerful.

Your strength is definitively being limited in this game. Because now we need to min max our builds or suffer from being weak for putting on crappy perks.

I also had more choices in first game compared to this one when leveling. I barely get perks and the ones I've gotten have mostly been useless.

[verarticus]

Originally posted by Zefar:

Originally posted by verarticus:

Something people don't seem to realize is that remnant 2 gives you so much more power than 1 did... sure it's a "60 point limit" but you have 20 others for free in archetype traits, traits only go to 10 instead of 20, they're stronger in general, you gets free perks and a prime perk with your archetypes, you get double the amount of rings, and you get two special skills. Your strength is not being limited at all.

It's also disingenuous to say you were "out-scaling" every boss and area with traits. Did that 1% stamina regen boost from that extra trait point you farmed REALLY help you out?

If you feel the need to level the "base" traits that's on you. You can make up for that with rings instead, or go without. I've never felt the need to rank up any stamina stuff at all.

https://remnantfromtheashes.wiki.fextralife.com/Traits
It was 20 Stamina regen at max level. Then add in a perk to reduce stamina cost by 20% as well and 50 extra stamina.

Also you got 50 extra health in the first game from the perk where as here it's just 30 points.

You can look at the perks there. They all end up giving a decent bonus.
Now the damage bonus for various stuff are lower but it's because weapons can be pretty powerful.

Your strength is definitively being limited in this game. Because now we need to min max our builds or suffer from being weak for putting on crappy perks.

I also had more choices in first game compared to this one when leveling. I barely get perks and the ones I've gotten have mostly been useless.

Ah yes, 60 perk points in stamina perks to almost feel meaningful. Nice.

I mean, do you want to level into things irrelevant on your character? Your argument is "look I picked everything that doesn't help with my loadout, so clearly they're making me weaker!" that's not an argument, that's whining because you don't want to think about a build.

Restriction breeds creativity, it instills to the players that they need to think carefully and reevaluate their setup if they start hitting walls. Infinite leveling instills the idea of "I'm not strong enough, let me go grind". This game barely restricts you, it just makes you actually make choices.

[Firellius]

I don't like the trait point cap, or at the very least, I don't like how low it is. There's 31 traits in the game, each going up to a max of 10 points. With a 60 point limit, you only get to freely choose six of those, and two will be added via your class.

Disregarding the class-bound traits, this does mean that 80% of traits will be left as wasted space. I really feel like the trait point cap should've been higher, or there should've been an alternative solution to bolster build options to give utilitarian picks (Strong Back, Wayfarer, Scholar) a better shot at seeing some actual use.

[富士葵 『F U J I _A O I』]

Originally posted by verarticus:

Ah yes, 60 perk points in stamina perks to almost feel meaningful. Nice.

I mean, do you want to level into things irrelevant on your character? Your argument is "look I picked everything that doesn't help with my loadout, so clearly they're making me weaker!" that's not an argument, that's whining because you don't want to think about a build.

That fact of the matter is, the Devs allowed you to (near) endlessly get stronger in the First game with their unrestricted trait point system. The devs removing this feature, as much as you want to deny it...is a largely unpopular decision that only the bare minority defends, like you.

Instead of understanding their viewpoint on this matter, you resorting to lowkey insults and condescension is just going to make people dislike the decision even more.

Originally posted by verarticus:

Restriction breeds creativity, it instills to the players that they need to think carefully and reevaluate their setup if they start hitting walls. Infinite leveling instills the idea of "I'm not strong enough, let me go grind". This game barely restricts you, it just makes you actually make choices.

Again, that's nothing more than an excuse and running defence blindly for a recognisably bad decision made by the devs. It is widely accepted as a wrong move by fans of the first game.

Purposely restricting player freedom (when it was permitted in the first game) all because of something so arbitrary and opinionated as "they are playing the game wrong!" is insulting.

Why should the devs or YOU ultimately decide how people play their COOP PvE game? This isn't a PvP experience, there's less need to obsess over PvP concepts like "balance/meta". Just let players enjoy their experience they want to. If they want to grind, why stop them?

Devs made a good sequel, can't deny that. But devs ASKED for feedback, and some of us are giving our feedback as people who support the devs. In fact, its obvious that players who are complaining about the point limit supported the devs since the start with the 1st game - new players won't even know about the trait point freedom.

So as some who SUPPORT the devs, Owning the 1st game plus dlc, AND now owning Ultimate edition with the sequel. I feel I am at least entitled to give my feedback and not have some "devs can do no wrong!" people condescending to me.

Lastly...did you even play the 1st game for any extended period of time and actually get enough trait points to start maxing traits? The boost to character strength is substantial. I'm a little surprised you are downplaying it if you actually did play the 1st game.

[富士葵 『F U J I _A O I』]

Originally posted by Firellius:

I don't like the trait point cap, or at the very least, I don't like how low it is. There's 31 traits in the game, each going up to a max of 10 points. With a 60 point limit, you only get to freely choose six of those, and two will be added via your class.

Disregarding the class-bound traits, this does mean that 80% of traits will be left as wasted space. I really feel like the trait point cap should've been higher, or there should've been an alternative solution to bolster build options to give utilitarian picks (Strong Back, Wayfarer, Scholar) a better shot at seeing some actual use.

If the devs are adamant of having a trait point limit - I feel they could at least meet us halfway?

Maybe make staple traits like health/stamina/CDs scale with power level just like how class traits scale with class level. At least that would allow us to actually use the 60 trait limit on something we want and not for a need.

Or alternatively, maxing an class not only unlocks the trait for general use, but unlocks it at maxed rank regardless of whether you change class or not?

or maybe, just double the trait point limit?

[Sid]

Originally posted by 富士葵 『F U J I _A O I』:

That fact of the matter is, the Devs allowed you to endlessly get stronger in the First game with their unrestricted trait point system. The devs removing this feature, as much as you want to deny it...is a largely unpopular decision that only the bare minority defends, like you.

that's not quite true, the devs heavily limited your ability to get stronger by imposing a 1000 point trait cap.
when you hit it, that was it, you had peaked.

now, I can always doubt myself and wonder if the points were better off somewhere else.
there is meaning behind the investment.

Originally posted by 富士葵 『F U J I _A O I』:

Again, that's nothing more than an excuse and running defence blindly for a recognisably bad decision made by the devs. It is widely accepted as a wrong move by fans of the first game.

Purposely restricting player freedom (when it was permitted in the first game) all because of something so arbitrary and opinionated as "they are playing the game wrong!" is insulting.

fan of the first game here, I hated that trait choices were irrelevant in the first game, they didn't matter, you might as well have just started with all 1000, it was just arbitrarily slow growth base stats.

getting given everything may be free, but it isn't freedom, there's no choice to be had, if there's no choice, there's no freedom, just an obligatory outcome you're obliged to endure, your will is completely irrelevant.


at the end of the day, this ain't a hill worth dying on, if you don't like it, mod it (like I did the first game to restrict traits instead), and play with like-minded people.

there's no wrong way to enjoy the game, you have the freedom to make the choice, and uncap the points if you so choose.

[FreshRevenge]

I have to be honest, I think it was stupid for the developers to remove the one feature in the first game so enjoyable.

Limiting it 60 is so not worth it. I mean I put my points in stamina regen and mod recovery. You know the important ones. As a Dark Souls fan, stamina is essential.

They need to bump it up to 100 or so, this way you can enjoy some of the other traits.

[Kappa]

There's currently more powercreep than reventan 1 even with 60 traits rather than unlimited, helping making the game easier and more forgiving, especially in coop.

In my opinion, they made great changes overall:
1) No more armor grind ( you can freely swap between armors depends the content, and also make mix of them to cover up for resistances and armor, not being tied to any armor set ). You can just put your resources into weapons/mods without being out of resources.
2a) Traits easy to cap ( 30/40 hours of game and you are done with your traits.
2b) Because of that, the difficulty is capped around the 60 traits, and so are the builds ( limiting powercreep is always the way to go imo ).
3) Archetypes easy to level up and, the majority of them, to unlock.

A consideration that me and my group made a while ago about traits.
Consider that once you are capped, you won't get scraps instead of nothing, everytime you or anybody else pick up a tome.

This might mean that they plan to increase the trait limit with the future DLC.
As mentioned in my first senntence, given the current powercreep they won't be obviously needed, unless gunfire plans to add stronger enemies ( or less exploitable ones ).

[Isaac]

I can't even begin to understand why people would argue against this. There's NO legitimate reason to have a trait cap. Just let me be powerful if I want to be; it's not like I'm competing against other people.

[Kappa]

Originally posted by Isaac:

I can't even begin to understand why people would argue against this. There's NO legitimate reason to have a trait cap. Just let me be powerful if I want to be; it's not like I'm competing against other people.

If you want for your character to be more powerful than intended by devs, and you don't want to compete with other players ( or ruin their games ), you can easily download a mod and tweak your character the way you want.

[富士葵 『F U J I _A O I』]

Originally posted by Kappa:

A consideration that me and my group made a while ago about traits.
Consider that once you are capped, you won't get scraps instead of nothing, everytime you or anybody else pick up a tome.

That's one of the concerns I've felt after maxing my trait limit. That rush from getting just that one more trait book is now gone. Collecting the book does nothing that I know of...no scrap, lumenite nothing.

It just feels like a big hole rn. This is especially so that most Trait tomes have a degree of challenge to get to them like a guarding elite or just being a little out of the way.

Other than being a little more generous with trait points, I'd hope collecting a trait book at max points perhaps gives a hefty scrap payout, or maybe lumenite with a small chance of Simulacrum.

[富士葵 『F U J I _A O I』]

Originally posted by Kappa:

Originally posted by Isaac:

I can't even begin to understand why people would argue against this. There's NO legitimate reason to have a trait cap. Just let me be powerful if I want to be; it's not like I'm competing against other people.

If you want for your character to be more powerful than intended by devs, and you don't want to compete with other players ( or ruin their games ), you can easily download a mod and tweak your character the way you want.

That's a little harsh to say isn't it? I don't believe Remnant 1 had that people steamrolling content in a lower power player's run even with large trait point differences.