B17 vs Zero - Betty vs Wildcat kill ratios

[davehca]

It seems Wildcats have a higher loss ratio against Bettys then Zeros against B17s. This doesn't feel right to me.

In the game, Zeros easily wipe out entired B17 formations, while Wildcats have a much tougher time against Betties.

Of course, Bettys are faster and more maneuverable than B17s, but B17s were a lot tougher. It's my understanding that in real life the Zeros found the B17 difficult to shoot down. But in the game, all it takes is one hit and down it goes.

[Southern-bear]

If I had to guess, while the game tries to model realistic weapons, it has very poor flight dynamics. So when a Zero attacks a B-17 from directly behind like they always do they're only up against 2 50cals...where as the Betty has a 20mm in the tail which may put out enough damage to overcome any advantage in armour or health the Wildcat may have over the Zero (at least I've found them to have in 1 on 1s against each other)

[Southern-bear]

My suggestion, as much as its a pain to do, try to micro your aircraft to attack from the front or sides only, tends to work a lot better for either faction you play.

[Redmarkus4]

I've seen this too. Bettys are wiping out my Wildcats with ease. I feel the stats need to be changed rather than me having to micro because of weaknesses in the air model.

[Andy]

Bit of a cheat maybe ,but if you combine all you B17's into a close box formation and then put then into a tight turn , the attacking planes usually break off just before they fire .
If there's more than one formation , have them circling near each other for mutual fire support ,also altering their height helps as well .

[Markus1987]

I give the tip to attack from different directions, we have tested the overhaul extensively in the beta.

A Wildcat performs worse against a Zero, for example,

Attacking a heavy bomber from behind depends on its defensive armament and the formation flown

[Redmarkus4]

Originally posted by Andy:

Bit of a cheat maybe ,but if you combine all you B17's into a close box formation and then put then into a tight turn , the attacking planes usually break off just before they fire .
If there's more than one formation , have them circling near each other for mutual fire support ,also altering their height helps as well .

That works fine for my bombers but the issue here is with AI Bettys shooting down my fighters...

[Markus1987]

Originally posted by Redmarkus4:

Originally posted by Andy:

Bit of a cheat maybe ,but if you combine all you B17's into a close box formation and then put then into a tight turn , the attacking planes usually break off just before they fire .
If there's more than one formation , have them circling near each other for mutual fire support ,also altering their height helps as well .

That works fine for my bombers but the issue here is with AI Bettys shooting down my fighters...

Attacks from the side or front, change of formation

[Andy]

Originally posted by Markus1987:

Originally posted by Redmarkus4:

That works fine for my bombers but the issue here is with AI Bettys shooting down my fighters...

Attacks from the side or front, change of formation

I find that if you can get them in front the bombers , then tag one or two fighters per bomber ( depending on how many you have of course ) .

Then as they get in range , pause game if you need too , them manually fire each of your fighters guns with Hot key 1.

Then hopefully watch them go down in flames !!!!!!!

[Redmarkus4]

Originally posted by Andy:

Originally posted by Markus1987:

Attacks from the side or front, change of formation

I find that if you can get them in front the bombers , then tag one or two fighters per bomber ( depending on how many you have of course ) .

Then as they get in range , pause game if you need too , them manually fire each of your fighters guns with Hot key 1.

Then hopefully watch them go down in flames !!!!!!!

All I'm saying is that we shouldn't need to do all that. Fighters coming in from six o'clock was pretty much a default in 1941... Bettys are overpowered IMO.

[Andy]

Originally posted by Redmarkus4:

Originally posted by Andy:

I find that if you can get them in front the bombers , then tag one or two fighters per bomber ( depending on how many you have of course ) .

Then as they get in range , pause game if you need too , them manually fire each of your fighters guns with Hot key 1.

Then hopefully watch them go down in flames !!!!!!!

All I'm saying is that we shouldn't need to do all that. Fighters coming in from six o'clock was pretty much a default in 1941... Bettys are overpowered IMO.

Not really but I understand what you mean . but the AI is quite basic when it comes to attacking bombers tho , many a time I've watched my fighters get into a good position then peel off without firing . Also the Betty Bomber was well armed with a 20mm canon in it's tail turret !!!
Historically or realistically , you've got to remember that fighter tactics had evolved due to war in Europe .
What caught the allies out when fighting the Zero tho , was it's tight turning circle and superior dog fighting capabilities at low speeds .
( Even better than the Hurricane )
It was only later on when they found out about it's lack of armour , self sealing tanks , bulletproof glass and light construction , that they found out how this was possible and why it had such a long range .
What also didn't help was the vastly underestimation of the skill of Japaneses pilots !

So to counter this the allies developed the Boom and Zoom tactic , which unfortunately can't be programmed into this game ....... Which why the Zero's do better in a dog fight ,

Which in turn , is why I try and go at them head on , tag a target to each of my fighters and manually hot key 1 for all of them to fire their guns as they get into range .

[papalimaromeo]

Data txt of both the betty and B17 need to be fixed. Armor values of both are incorrect. Default is 0.2 for the Betty and 0.65 for the B17. Betty should be 0.0 and B17 should be 0.95. As many of you know the Betty had no armor or self sealing fuel tanks.

[Andy]

Originally posted by papalimaromeo:

Data txt of both the betty and B17 need to be fixed. Armor values of both are incorrect. Default is 0.2 for the Betty and 0.65 for the B17. Betty should be 0.0 and B17 should be 0.95. As many of you know the Betty had no armor or self sealing fuel tanks.

i think later models did get armour and self sealing tanks so I'm guessing that's what the Mod developers used .

[davehca]

Case in point: 16 B-17s (two groups of 8) attacked by 12 Zeros (8 + 4). All 16 shot down to only a loss of 6 Zeros. I did try have them in tight circles to avoid tail shots. Part of the problem is trying to get the 16 close enough together to offer mutual protection before they get mauled. I wish the 8 at least were deployed together in tighter formation rather than two sets of 4 planes some distance apart. In the suggestion discussion I requested the ability of aircraft of the same type from different bases to be able to rendezvous and form up together. There is the Escort option but that doesn't work all that well for this purpose.

[Andy]

Originally posted by davehca:

Case in point: 16 B-17s (two groups of 8) attacked by 12 Zeros (8 + 4). All 16 shot down to only a loss of 6 Zeros. I did try have them in tight circles to avoid tail shots. Part of the problem is trying to get the 16 close enough together to offer mutual protection before they get mauled. I wish the 8 at least were deployed together in tighter formation rather than two sets of 4 planes some distance apart. In the suggestion discussion I requested the ability of aircraft of the same type from different bases to be able to rendezvous and form up together. There is the Escort option but that doesn't work all that well for this purpose.

Put all 12 in one boxed close formation and put them in a tight turn whilst changing the altitude down wards . If they are close to your formation ,make sure it's turning away from them rather than towards them .
If other enemy planes appear change direction accordingly and keep changing altitude.

[SEAWOLF]

Just another situation showing how bad air combat is in this game - playing as the USN, I had 12x Zeros & 12x Kates attack my convoy. My CAP (24x Hellcats) engaged the enemy. The result; 12x Zeros shot down with the loss of 5x Hellcats. 6x Kates shot down with the loss of 19x Hellcats! I should point out that I am playing a mod that is no longer available and I had to do a reset due the updated vanilla (beta) version that was released. (I probably needed to do a full reinstall of the mod) I hope those players using the vanilla (beta) version are not experiencing these types of situations with the air combat. If they are, the Developer needs to be told to fix this.