subs are ruining this game.

[Amogus]

They are just too easy to cheese and AI have no idea how to deal with them, i don't have a single surface fleet beside the merchant convey and their destroyer escort, and i sank like 4 american battleships 5 CA and 4 CL within like 2 weeks in game time, with just 4 submarines on the map.

[Markus1987]

What difficulty are you playing on? With or without mods?

Well, I can play well with U boats - the AI sometimes performs good attacks with the same.

As for the destroyer escorts, it depends on the type of escort, the weather, the sea state, whether they locate you or not.

[Amogus]

Originally posted by Markus1987:

What difficulty are you playing on? With or without mods?

Well, I can play well with U boats - the AI sometimes performs good attacks with the same.

As for the destroyer escorts, it depends on the type of escort, the weather, the sea state, whether they locate you or not.

no the problem is they react after i sank their ship.

[Markus1987]

Originally posted by WAFFLE:

Originally posted by Markus1987:

What difficulty are you playing on? With or without mods?

Well, I can play well with U boats - the AI sometimes performs good attacks with the same.

As for the destroyer escorts, it depends on the type of escort, the weather, the sea state, whether they locate you or not.

no the problem is they react after i sank their ship.

Sry, but most of the time a U-boat is noticed in the stupidest case only when the torpedoes reach their target - that is just realistic.

[Amogus]

Originally posted by Markus1987:

Sry, but most of the time a U-boat is noticed in the stupidest case only when the torpedoes reach their target - that is just realistic.

yeah but it make it super easy to cheese the Ai, i have 4 subs on the maps and sank 4 BB, 5 CA and 4 CL, within 2 week because the Ai don't know how to response to my sub cheese.

[jfoytek]

Originally posted by WAFFLE:

Originally posted by Markus1987:

Sry, but most of the time a U-boat is noticed in the stupidest case only when the torpedoes reach their target - that is just realistic.

yeah but it make it super easy to cheese the Ai, i have 4 subs on the maps and sank 4 BB, 5 CA and 4 CL, within 2 week because the Ai don't know how to response to my sub cheese.

You can cheese the AI in many ways not just submarines....

I have sunk the entire IJN navy several times over without even using a sub and without taking any losses to my own ships....

The games AI is not exactly earth breaking...

What I don't get is you telling everyone and their mother to use IJN submarines and then at the same time complaining about how OP they are....

How about do what most everyone else does and simply police yourself... If subs are OP then don't use them... Problem solved....

[Innominatam]

Well the AI is pretty dumb not does it technically have freedom of movement, they move according to waypoints and preset paths, so once you learn the routes yeah the game is easy.

If you want any degree of challenge you have to not use cheese tactics like manual fire, bombing from such high altitude the aa cannot defend,

[Amogus]

Originally posted by jfoytek:

What I don't get is you telling everyone and their mother to use IJN submarines and then at the same time complaining about how OP they are....

How about do what most everyone else does and simply police yourself... If subs are OP then don't use them... Problem solved....

if more people know about how op the sub cheese are maybe the dev will finally do something about it.

[jfoytek]

Originally posted by WAFFLE:

Originally posted by jfoytek:

What I don't get is you telling everyone and their mother to use IJN submarines and then at the same time complaining about how OP they are....

How about do what most everyone else does and simply police yourself... If subs are OP then don't use them... Problem solved....

if more people know about how op the sub cheese are maybe the dev will finally do something about it.

What exactly do you want the dev to do???

Sonar is already easier in this game then real life...
Depth charge runs are already easier and more deadly in this game then real life....

Is the fix what the modders have done and make subs the same cost as battleships???

What do you propose for a solution...

Remember their are likely plenty of players who enjoy the sub combat and are not at all upset with how cheesy and easy it might be....

Personally I don't see some simply fix here, do you??? The only fix I see is to simply police yourself and not use those subs you think are so over powered...

Which is the same fix for most things in this game....

Is perfect level bombing from 9000 feet too cheesy for you? Then don't do it....

Or perhaps you should allow those Destroyer Escorts that are hunting you time enough to find you and sink you before pressing retreat....

[Amogus]

Originally posted by jfoytek:

What exactly do you want the dev to do???

Sonar is already easier in this game then real life...
Depth charge runs are already easier and more deadly in this game then real life....

Is the fix what the modders have done and make subs the same cost as battleships???

What do you propose for a solution...

Remember their are likely plenty of players who enjoy the sub combat and are not at all upset with how cheesy and easy it might be....

Personally I don't see some simply fix here, do you??? The only fix I see is to simply police yourself and not use those subs you think are so over powered...

Which is the same fix for most things in this game....

Is perfect level bombing from 9000 feet too cheesy for you? Then don't do it....

Or perhaps you should allow those Destroyer Escorts that are hunting you time enough to find you and sink you before pressing retreat....

Lol you do know they already have the fix in game, it's called how ai behavior in a surface fleet engagement, the easiest fix is let the defending fleet ai start maneuvering as soon as combat start, right now the ai just sail in a straight line until they are hit by torpedoes in sub encounter, instead they should do what the surface fleet action do, start maneuvering as soong as the combat start. the ai would send the merchant fleet high tail running at the start of the surface action and combat ship moving closer to engage your fleet, but for submarines they don't this. just code the surface fleet engagement ai for sub encoutner easist fix.

so at the start of sub encounter the ships without asw ability would start sailing away from the subs directions and destroyers and crusier with asw would sail toward the subs and attempt to engage them

[jfoytek]

Originally posted by WAFFLE:

Originally posted by jfoytek:

What exactly do you want the dev to do???

Sonar is already easier in this game then real life...
Depth charge runs are already easier and more deadly in this game then real life....

Is the fix what the modders have done and make subs the same cost as battleships???

What do you propose for a solution...

Remember their are likely plenty of players who enjoy the sub combat and are not at all upset with how cheesy and easy it might be....

Personally I don't see some simply fix here, do you??? The only fix I see is to simply police yourself and not use those subs you think are so over powered...

Which is the same fix for most things in this game....

Is perfect level bombing from 9000 feet too cheesy for you? Then don't do it....

Or perhaps you should allow those Destroyer Escorts that are hunting you time enough to find you and sink you before pressing retreat....

Lol you do know they already have the fix in game, it's called how ai behavior in a surface fleet engagement, the easiest fix is let the defending fleet ai start maneuvering as soon as combat start, right now the ai just sail in a straight line until they are hit by torpedoes in sub encounter, instead they should do what the surface fleet action do, start maneuvering as soong as the combat start. the ai would send the merchant fleet high tail running at the start of the surface action and combat ship moving closer to engage your fleet, but for submarines they don't this. just code the surface fleet engagement ai for sub encoutner easist fix.

so at the start of sub encounter the ships without asw ability would start sailing away from the subs directions and destroyers and crusier with asw would sail toward the subs and attempt to engage them

Uhm what you said is what happens....

Transports sail away from the direction the torps came from and start to run and ships with ASW charge in with sonar active.....

However they don't do this until after a ship has been torpedoed because they don't know the sub is their because its a submarine lol.....

So let me get this right... You want the submarine encounter to begin with the enemy knowing you are their?!?

[Amogus]

Originally posted by jfoytek:

Uhm what you said is what happens....

Transports sail away from the direction the torps came from and start to run and ships with ASW charge in with sonar active.....

However they don't do this until after a ship has been torpedoed because they don't know the sub is their because its a submarine lol.....

So let me get this right... You want the submarine encounter to begin with the enemy knowing you are their?!?

Lol that's what i said they don't response AFTER they got hit by torpedoes which is why it's so easy to cheese, they need to make it os they start moving as soon as tactical battle begin, let the ai just spot the submarine or at the very least let the none asw ship under ai control auto detect the submarines.

[nolaJeff]

instead they should do what the surface fleet action do, start maneuvering as soong as the combat start.

That's because surface fleets have spotted either a plane or enemy surface ships.

Why would surface ships respond to an undiscovered sub? Sure, they might respond to seeing torpedo wakes but you're saying they should respond immediately in tactical. Not realistic and that would be super cheese in itself and people would complain that the AI is cheating.

The real problem here is the design of the game. If you're commanding a surface fleet and are forced into a sub encounter, then the AI automatically puts the sub in a perfect shot situation at close range. This is because the developers knew that a player would immediately change speed and course and be able to evade a long range torp shot.

IMO, they should change the way sub encounters work. Surface ships should be forced to sail at current speed and course until they either a) spot torp wakes, b) spot a surfaced sub or periscope or c)sonar picks up either torp screws or sub screws. This would best emulate a surprise attack. Surface player should be forced to look from his ship for the sub or torp wake and/or use sonar. Once spotted, the player could simply click on the periscope, torp, or surfaced sub - then and only then would he be able to change his ship's course and speed. In order for this to work right the sub locations need to be more random and further out at actual detection ranges that a sub would have on a surfaced fleet. The sub AI or player would have to work his sub into a good attack position (no more automatic ideal firing positions). And of course Japanese torps should be much harder to spot visibly.

[Buzzkil88]

The perfect place for an early test of this? It's something I've been putting together in the last few days just because of sub ambushes.

MegaWaves Mod : War on the Sea : WIP

A War on the Sea wave overhaul. and a combat overhaul in disguise!
Take note that this is a work in progress(WIP) and isn't perfect. Also be advised, wave heights do impact performance. More importantly though is understanding how this mod will effect combat, particularly for torpedoes... The higher the sea state/waves, the deeper torps run in order to keep them underwater, just as it is in the base game, yet the battlefield is amplified and this matters. The base of zero for sea level hasn't changed, only wave height has been increased and symmetrically depressions below the base of sea level are deeper and these two things really effect torpedo chance to hit. Therefore ambushes will no longer be so cheesy, because, as the sea states get higher the chance to hit ships actually decreases. As an environmental mod, these changes effect both sides of the battlefield.
Sea State 0,1,2 - All ships must maneuver, torps run shallow here
Sea State 3 - Torps rarely go under destroyers
Sea State 4 - Torps more regularly go under destroyers, rarely go under light cruisers
Sea State 5 - Torps more regularly go under light cruisers, rarely go under heavy cruisers
Sea State 6 - Torps more regularly go under heavy cruisers, rarely go under battleships
Sea State 7 - Torps more regularly go under battleships
Sea State 8 - This ain't the place for torps
NOTE: There are some issues.
Wind speed readout on the tac map reads double the true wind speed, divide it in half.
Torp run depth can still be found a bit high here and there and they skim just above the surface in the deepest depressions of sea level.(working on it).

So far only wave height/torp depth has been my focus and i'm not finished yet, and because of that there are few things to be aware of and or help with:

Testing to see if ship fires scaled due to wind speeds/ship speeds hasn't happened.
Testing on ambient ocean noise vs sonar ranges hasn't happened.
Testing to see if there are other things effected by the mod hasn't happened.
Temporarily if those are issues, they could possibly be countered with difficulty settings and the sonar multiplier, fingers crossed...
Yet I think whats here already is very cool and very much the fix for a lot of the issues with sub/torpedo mechanics. So don't give up hope.

To test the mod while WIP continues, paste the section below over the same section in a mod free base game config(make a backup of the config) and save. Paste it in a modded game at your own risk, it might work it just depends if other mods touched these values. If you check the mod out, I'd love some early feedback!

"oceanWindStrength":[6.0,8.0,11.0,13.0,15.0,17.5,18.65,23.0,29.0,29.0],"oceanChoppyness":[2.5,2.8,2.8,1.9,2.0,2.25,2.3,2.5,1.5,1.9],"oceanWaveSpeed":[0.36,0.38,0.38,0.38,0.40,0.44,0.51,0.51,0.51,0.61],"oceanFoamAmount":[1.2,1.2,1.3,1.3,1.4,1.4,1.6,1.6,1.6],"oceanFoamCoverage":[0.05,0.05,0.05,0.05,0.05,0.05,0.05,0.05,0.05],"oceanAmbientVolume":[0.1,0.1,0.2,0.3,0.4,0.5,0.8,0.9,1.0],"torpedoRunDepth":[0.265,0.265,0.305,0.336,0.447,0.62,0.9,1.25,1.573],"maxWindForce":0.25,

[SnaggingWater65]

play with rules for yourself.
do a destroyer only campaign or a plane only,
do a no sub campaign.

the game is made so you can play it how you want, dont ask the devs to tell us how to play the game. as that is not fun and destroys replayability. look a t ultimate admiral dreadnaughts, it has been ruined by people like yourself saying i cant control myself, please tell me how to play this game.

you a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥

edit, this post has made me angry