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A quick review of information at NAVWEAPS.COM find the 16"/45 guns of a North Carolina-class battleship had better penetration than the 40cm/45 guns of a Nagato-class battleship, and that the penetration of the 36cm/45 guns of the Kongo class were even less. See:
Penetration for the IJN 36cm/45 guns used on the Kongo-class battleships is not given on the page, but using the equation presented here[www.navweaps.com], namely
T = (0.0004689) x W^0.55 x D^-0.65 x V^1.1, where
- T is penetration
- W is shell weight
- D is shell diameter
- V is shell velocity
gives a penetration of 15.3 inches for the IJN 36cm/45 gun using the IJN Type 91 AP at 20,000 yards when scaling between the given ranges of 15,000 meters and 20,000 meters.It doesn't seem to make sense though, according to that formula. The numbers very slightly favor the Nagato's weapon. A projectile of same weight, slightly thicker, moving slightly faster.
Nagato T =(0.0004689) x 1020kg^.55 x 410cm^-.65 x 790m/s^1.1 = 0.6529
NorthCarolina T= (0.0004689) x 1020kg^.55 x 406cm^-.65 x 770m/s^1.1 = 0.6388
I tried to put those numbers into an online calculator but I'm not sure of the units in the output but they do give Nagato a higher T value.
We can tell just by looking at the inputs that they should be very close penetration.
I did check the numbers on Navweap but they looked to me at a glance like they would give North Carolina a even lower pen...
You didn't mention the velocity. Navweap only gives 701m/s but doesn't state the mark, but it makes sense that it would be a slower velocity if it fires a heavier projectile through the same barrel.
Kinetic energy = 1/2 mass x velocity ^2
which suggests velocity is more important than mass for kinetic energy... lets try it in the Penetration equation from Navweap,com
T=(0.0004689) x 1225kg^.55 x 406cm^-.65 x 701m/s^1.1 = 0.6372
No surprise. Slightly less penetration than the lighter, faster round.
Still less than Nagato 0.6529
Still don't know what those units are but it does suggest the relative ratio and using the pen for North Carolina 17.6inchs @ 20 000 yards gives:
0.6388/0.6372 x 17.6inchs = 18.0 inch pen for Nagato
Of course the 40 sec reload versus 24 sec is another issue to consider...
The penetration versus US armor is the relevant column. NC shell and Nagato shell are similar up to 10k yards. At longer ranges the NC shell out penetrates the Nagato shell. Remember IJN guns vs US CLass A armor and USN vs Japanese VIckers Hardened. The Nagato's guns fired a shell with similar performance to the contemporary USN Colorado class. Remember you are comparing guns designed about 20 years apart.
Those charts are interesting I hadn't found them. The differences in amour of the different Navies introduces another interesting and complicated variable and I assume the charts in the game are using a standard armor. Even if the devs added a hidden variable for this to the in game charts the Japanese 14' and 16" guns would not have identical pen at any range.
Now I look at the tables they do confirm my perceptions that the in game Nagato has severely nerfed pen. Maybe it's just the in game graph that is wrong and the actual shells perform reasonably accurately.
Fro, the Navweaps site:
16.1"/45 gun, Type 91 AP (1931-45) Japan
20 000y 18.1inches US armour which almost exactly matches the calculation using the Penetration eqn of 18 inches funnily enough!
16"/45 gun, Mk 8 1-5 (1939-44)
20 000y 19inches US armor 20.1 IJN armor
Just so I am making myself clear. I'm pointing out that Nagato and Ise should NOT be identical, not that Nagato and NC SHOULD be identical.
The in game pen charts for 14" and 16.1 inch gun are identical below 30 000m
All of the resources being linked confirm my point that this can't be right.
The in game chart shows both Nagato and Ise max pen at 0m range of 570mm.
The NC chart shows 742mm .
All of the refence charts show the Nagota pen was closer to NC than to Ise. But in game chart show opposite.
https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/1815526177792594443/8511535119D8AD62A90654BD54A6D5140815F676/?imw=5000&imh=5000&ima=fit&impolicy=Letterbox&imcolor=%23000000&letterbox=false
https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/1815526177792595367/582B64F2DFBC6960E620BE363D8DBA0C4FD90184/?imw=5000&imh=5000&ima=fit&impolicy=Letterbox&imcolor=%23000000&letterbox=false
https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/1815526177792598022/C1F61DB64DC2EAAF44D45FC65A65407B36DCBFA1/?imw=5000&imh=5000&ima=fit&impolicy=Letterbox&imcolor=%23000000&letterbox=false
What are you aiming to achieve with it? Bug fixing? More accurate pen curves/ range?
I would like to play with a Nagato with guns that are more like the historical data on Navweap.com. Historical 16.1' penetration and a rate of fire less than 30 sec would make Nagato much more interesting BB to play with, and apparently more historically accurate.
I'd like to know how many of these big gun shots don't penetrate in game. It's not easy to tell how much it matters as things are now. I tried testing some USN light cruisers v IJN BB and the cruisers won. They set the BB on fire and over whelmed it with so many hits that I assume didn't penetrate the armour. What did it look like/sound like when a BB main gun hit another BB armour and fail to penetrate? I guess the shell exploded either way?
I recall, when War on the Sea first came out I was playing with the BBs, firing beyond the horizon manually with a plane spotting the enemy fleet. I would place the shots in front of the lead enemy ship and the whole formation would sail through it and some would get hit eventually. So long range BB fire is only possible manually and the IA won't return fire with it's own spotter plane. I haven't tested that recently though.
Looking forward to your Gunnery mod if it can improve the game.
Just saying :)
Ill post these youtube links here, you might find them interesting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BoEFjl0buiM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oR2ltH4aqAM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lxFFPOv0kE
I usually watch videos about history of warfare and military engineering on the second screen while playing war games on the primary. So I'll watch those docos for sure..
Fair point about the fire direction and the timing delay. Especially at long range.
I've even seen quotes of 20 sec rate of fire for Nagato. But this must have been in ideal training conditions. Very hard to maintain in longer battles. I wonder what the reloading system was? Japanese sailors were usually smaller than American sailors too, so they must have had a good reloading system if they really could manage those times, even in training.
The only way to speed up that process would be to remove the safety hatches that prevent a turret fire from propagating to the magazine, which is what the RN battlescruisers did at Jutland with disastrous results.
As technology improved the hydraulic systems got a little bit faster (just a few secs). So the reload rate of a 1st gen dreadnought was roughly similar to the last gen of fast battleships, literally just a few secs difference. :)