Submarines fixed?

[Rcentrone]

I originally liked this game but uninstalled it as I'm getting owned by enemy subs and find it difficult to find enemy fleets. Has this been fixed or will it be? This could be such a great game but for now very frustrating for me. I suppose it could be that I'm just not getting it but I see alot of comments that people are having similar problems.

[byepopejoy]

In my experience on the current version (1.08g5h7):

• Submarines remain undetectable on the strategic map, but are manageable on the tactical map with the right formations & tactics, at least in my experience.
  
  
• Enemy fleets are not common, but can be found fairly easily with thorough aircraft searches and by submarines stationed at key chokepoints or along expected task force travel routes.

[Markus1987]

Well, so honestly, how often were U boats really found in the early stages of the war? Most of them were found during attacks on task forces or convoys, which is a good illustration of how a U-boat gets lost very quickly in the vastness of the Pacific.

[byepopejoy]

Originally posted by Markus1987:

Well, so honestly, how often were U boats really found in the early stages of the war? Most of them were found during attacks on task forces or convoys, which is a good illustration of how a U-boat gets lost very quickly in the vastness of the Pacific.

Historically,

• Allied post-war analysis did not credit any of their aircraft with sinking an IJN submarine during the entire Solomons campaign (Aug 1942 - Sep 1943), though aircraft did participate with surface vessels in sinking a few[www.history.navy.mil]
  
  
• The USN lost four submarines during the campaign, but post-war analysis gave Japanese aircraft partial credit at best in conjunction with attacks by surface vessels:
  
  • Argonaut, Jan 1943[www.history.navy.mil]
    
  • Amberjack, Feb 1943. [www.history.navy.mil]
    
  • Grayback, Feb-Mar 1943[www.history.navy.mil]
    
  • Triton, Mar 1943[www.history.navy.mil]

[MizuYuuki]

I find the enemy submarines pretty easy to deal with even after some changes were made to help the AI subs. I use line-ahead formation at 1000 yd separation between ships with a couple of DDs up front and a couple at the rear of the formation. My ships are usually able to avoid the torpedoes, and the DDs find and sink the sub about 50% of the time. What really helps is creating many 2 DD ASW groups and using them to shield my main task force. The AI will usually attack these ASW groups, and end up losing the sub. Use one sub to detect and shadow the enemy sub, and use the other sub to make the attack run coming up from behind the sub. Move 2 or 3 knots faster than the sub, and drop the depth charges when the rear of the DD reaches the bow of the sub.

[Killerfish Games]

Also keep in mind that War on the Sea is easily modified if desired.
To remove all submarines from a campaign and focus on the surface engagements:

Open default/campaign/campaignXXX/seaUnits.txt
Remove all lines that are submarines.

{"nation":"usa","available":[3,6,1940],"unitID":"tambor","cost":10}
{"nation":"usa","available":[31,12,1941],"unitID":"gato","cost":10}
{"nation":"japan","available":[30,9,1940],"unitID":"type_b1","cost":12}
{"nation":"japan","available":[10,11,1940],"unitID":"type_b2","cost":12}

You now have a vanilla campaign with no submarines.

This thread explains making an override folder to make your edits permanent:
https://steamcommunity.com/app/1280780/discussions/3/3106890436343654279/

[JG1 Wilhelm]

Originally posted by Rcentrone:

...I'm getting owned by enemy subs...

Enemy subs are definitely very challenging to deal with when you first start playing the game, but it gets much easier with experience. All the suggestions above are very good, although, for the sake of realism, I don't recommend eliminating subs from the game.

After a couple of frustrating campaign starts due to enemy subs, I temporarily changed my goal from winning the campaign to finding and fighting subs using several ASW groups consisting of two or three light destroyers each in line abreast formation. It took a couple of dozen encounters before I could consistently avoid their torpedoes and then sink the subs.


Until you get good at avoiding torpedoes and sinking subs with stock settings, here are some more things you can do:

1. In your override config.txt file, find "hideStrategicMapSubs":true and change it to "hideStrategicMapSubs":false. That way, you can find and track subs with aircraft and vector your ASW groups to intercept. Yes, you can try to sink the subs with aircraft, but that won't help you develop the skill to sink them with destroyers so that you can eventually go back to the more realistic config.txt setting.

2. In game options, set sonar range to 2X or more, so you can more easily find and track subs on the tactical map. Be aware that this also makes it easier for enemy destroyers to find and track your own subs in tactical. Rain, sea state, and ship speed affect sonar range. When one of my destroyers gets within about 2k yds or meters of where I think a sub is, I reduce it's speed to 17 kns, minus 1 knot per sea state value. In sea state 6 plus rain, I don't waste time trying to find a sub.

3. Use one or a pair of destroyers as an advance scout ahead of your high-value TF's (for convoys containing merchants or oilers, use a destroyer paired with a sub as the scout group). Keep the scout/s 5 to 10 miles ahead of the main TF. If the scout group encounters a sub, before going to tactical, you can "merge" a destroyer or two from the main group into the scout group to help fight the sub. It's a bit fiddly to keep a scout force just a few miles ahead of your main convoy - the scout group has to double back a couple of miles every few hours - but it has been worth the effort for me. My high-value TF's rarely get surprised by an enemy sub or surface force. I think the merge distance is 13NM, so you can merge any ships that are within that range with the task force that is experiencing an "encounter" before you go to tactical, as long as you don't go over the 10-ship limit.

[Flip]

I just started playing the campaign and quickly realized the only viable formation was Line Ahead and max (1,000 Yard) spacing. This allows your ships to manuver to avoid torpedoes without blocking each other. I have DD's front and DD's at the year with main ships in the middle.

At battle start I wait a few seconds then turn them all except the destroyers, I wait with them until I sea the torpedo trail and then turn them towards the origin so they can hunt for the sub and then it's just about dancing your ships away from the torps but usually not that bad because the sub fires as soon as the mission starts so when you turn you are usually already close to moving out of their path.

[Flip]

Originally posted by Killerfish Games:

Also keep in mind that War on the Sea is easily modified if desired.
To remove all submarines from a campaign and focus on the surface engagements:

Open default/campaign/campaignXXX/seaUnits.txt
Remove all lines that are submarines.

{"nation":"usa","available":[3,6,1940],"unitID":"tambor","cost":10}
{"nation":"usa","available":[31,12,1941],"unitID":"gato","cost":10}
{"nation":"japan","available":[30,9,1940],"unitID":"type_b1","cost":12}
{"nation":"japan","available":[10,11,1940],"unitID":"type_b2","cost":12}

You now have a vanilla campaign with no submarines.

This thread explains making an override folder to make your edits permanent:
https://steamcommunity.com/app/1280780/discussions/3/3106890436343654279/

Awesome to know thanks!

[T.TV/NokiAndNai]

Against IJN, the enemy subs have float planes, which can be followed with Avengers loaded with depth charges until they vanish off the map. Go tactical on that spot, and if your Avengers start at 500m altitude instead of 1000, you found a sub. The IJN only have 26 subs in their entire service, so over the course of a long campaign, you can thin them out quickly while suffering few successful sub ambushes.

Against the USN, keep moving. Anything that moves Fast speed on the map or better can outrun USN subs. They don't have float planes of their own, so you can keep away from them easily, and lose them even if they do spot you. The other advantage you have is that the USN torpedoes have a very high dud rate, so even if you do get ambushed, you stand to take less damage due to defective torpedoes.

If a sub attack does happen on one of my fleets, I make sure they are spread far apart, then as soon as I start the encounter I either turn or change speed dramatically on all my ships. The torpedoes fire as soon as the engagement begins based on the speed and direction of the target ship, so if all ships radically change course and/or speed, you have a lower chance of being hit. If I can see the torpedo wakes, I can get my destroyers moving that direction, which will often bring the fish up on the map. If the torps look like they are going to hit one of my ships, I halt the others or move them out of the way, and fine-tune the at-risk ship to maneuver between the torpedoes unless I can get them out of the fan entirely.

After the initial dodge, it is then ask about hunting them down and sinking them. If I find it, rather than using the automated attack, I'll move my DD to come up behind it so my heading matches the target's heading and bearing, lining up perfectly with them and going just slightly faster to catch up. As I pass over, their signal will disappear, but after a little more time to get just slightly ahead of them, I drop a single pattern (to save ammo). Once it goes off, I switch to show reverse to pick the enemy up again, repeating only as necessary to sink. It doesn't take a lot of depth charges to sink a sub. If they blow ballast and are forced to the surface, make sure fire at will is on for your DD, but off for your other ships. Don't want to suffer friendly fire from over-eager ships.

If you are getting attacked by subs frequently, keeping your fleets small with a destroyer escort and ships spaced 1000m will make torpedoes easier to dodge. You can run multiple small fleets very close together, and then merge them before getting into a big surface battle. I like to run four ships in circle pattern with only one DD in #1 position and my most important ship #2. As soon as the ambush starts, I throw all my ships except my DD into full reverse until I know where the torpedoes are.

[Tar-Mairon]

Originally posted by Markus1987:

Well, so honestly, how often were U boats really found in the early stages of the war? Most of them were found during attacks on task forces or convoys, which is a good illustration of how a U-boat gets lost very quickly in the vastness of the Pacific.

Not really, U-boats biggest nightmare were planes. There should be some possibilitily to spot sub on campaign map

[Markus1987]

Originally posted by Tar-Mairon:

Originally posted by Markus1987:

Well, so honestly, how often were U boats really found in the early stages of the war? Most of them were found during attacks on task forces or convoys, which is a good illustration of how a U-boat gets lost very quickly in the vastness of the Pacific.

Not really, U-boats biggest nightmare were planes. There should be some possibilitily to spot sub on campaign map

We did, but this was turned off because there were many U-boats on the way and players were upset that sighting a Sub would cause interruptions.

I think it's okay the way it is now, Subs are not so common anymore, but also can't be spotted so easily.

[Tar-Mairon]

Originally posted by Markus1987:

Originally posted by Tar-Mairon:

Not really, U-boats biggest nightmare were planes. There should be some possibilitily to spot sub on campaign map

We did, but this was turned off because there were many U-boats on the way and players were upset that sighting a Sub would cause interruptions.

I think it's okay the way it is now, Subs are not so common anymore, but also can't be spotted so easily.

Well, I can't call it ok if I can't literally spot subs in any way. There is no point in creating small DD task force to intercept spotted sub, or equipping planes with depth charges, since I can't spot them. Making sub detection on campaign map to 1km would be ok. Some mechanic with bateries would be ok I guess.

Spotting enemy ships using planes is a bit broken anyway, I wish there was some kind of follow order where my scout would follow enemy task force, now we need to do it manually.

[Flip]

I have dedicated DD patrols and they engage subs all the time. I have them just patrolling ares of interest and in infront of my other fleets and they engage subs constantly. Sure it's not me spotting the subs, it's the subs attacking me, but either way, 1 sub vs 3 DD's is a free 9 points!

[MizuYuuki]

Originally posted by Tar-Mairon:

Well, I can't call it ok if I can't literally spot subs in any way.

I played the game with subs visible on the strategic map, and it's just too east to sink a sub with dive bombers. Playing that way effectively removed subs as a threat from the game. So, I went back to playing with them invisible on the strategic map. However, I subsequently found out that you can change the dive time of subs to make them dive faster. That might be interesting because you would then have to use depth charges to have a chance of sinking it. I haven't tried that because playing Vanilla IJN I cannot put a depth charge on a plane. Soon I will play the USN campaign and I will make that change to submarine dive time, and try playing that way.