Smoke screens and gameplay

[MizuYuuki]

I know that players asked for smoke screens, and KFG was able to put them into the game. That's great, but smoke is making surface engagements less decisive by allowing damaged ships to escape destruction. By virtue of the period of invisibility granted them after returning from a tactical encounter, those damaged ships, which can be largely repaired at sea, can reappear behind a task force that had been blocking their path forward. This in turn means expending all or almost all ammo in a single tactical encounter in an attempt to sink the enemy ships so that the encounter is decisive. Is the gameplay really intended to be one of rearming a task force after every tactical encounter? If not, then either the effect of smoke should be lessened or the period of invisibility should be removed from the game.

The variable "allowSmoke":false in config.txt to remove smoke doesn't seem to work for me.

[101GHOST]

Thats how smoke works in real life and some players, like myself, prefer this over the massacre slug fest that was the game without smoke.

[MizuYuuki]

Originally posted by 101GHOST:

Thats how smoke works in real life and some players, like myself, prefer this over the massacre slug fest that was the game without smoke.

From recent experience, I estimate that an enemy task force has to suffer 50% losses to force it to retreat on the strategic map. So, it's still pretty much a slug fest. With smoke, It just has to be done at closer range of something like 5000 yds.

[JazzObserver127]

If you want your FC directors to hit and sink the enemy, become the director. In other words, use manual firing.

[Anthony]

Originally posted by 101GHOST:

Thats how smoke works in real life and some players, like myself, prefer this over the massacre slug fest that was the game without smoke.

The rate at which smoke is employed is absolutely not realistic, no.

You can turn it off in the config.txt, and I always do. Smoke was a good idea, but the AI isn't sophisticated enough to be employing it realistically.

[MizuYuuki]

Originally posted by Anthony:

The rate at which smoke is employed is absolutely not realistic, no.

You can turn it off in the config.txt, and I always do. Smoke was a good idea, but the AI isn't sophisticated enough to be employing it realistically.

Exactly! I set up a 4 CA vs 4 CA custom battle. Every time I replay this battle the AI charges at my battle line trying to get within range to launch torpedoes. One by one its ships are damaged so severely that they turn away and make smoke. If the AI knew what it was doing, it would use smoke during its charge at my battle line in order to limit damage to its ships. The AI seems to be following a simple rule that if a ship receives a certain amount of damage then turn away and make smoke. That makes sense in some situations, but not in every situation. For instance, merchants try to run away from enemy warships, but they only turn on smoke after they are damaged. Wouldn't it make sense to turn on smoke when the enemy warships started shooting at you? If a feature is added, but the AI doesn't know how to use it correctly then it becomes an advantage for the player.

[Markus1987]

In more recent parts, e.g. Fighting Steel, smoke was also used for retreat coverage, never for an attack, which is also logical

[Cpl. Hicks]

That is how surface bettles generally worked in real life.

Warships are huge, expensive pieces of equipment. That require hundreds if not thousands of people to operate. They generally did not stand around exchanging shells until all the ships on one side were sunk.

Surface battles with a decisive outcome were rare, end when they did happen, they became pretty much legendary.

[byepopejoy]

Originally posted by MizuYuuki:

I know that players asked for smoke screens, and KFG was able to put them into the game. That's great, but smoke is making surface engagements less decisive by allowing damaged ships to escape destruction.

Actually, smoke was used in almost all of the daylight surface battles fought in the Pacific[www.history.navy.mil], if not the entire Second World War. For example, take a look at the Battle of the Kommandorski Islands[www.history.navy.mil], fought in March 1943, or the Battle off Samar[www.history.navy.mil], fought in 1944.

By virtue of the period of invisibility granted them after returning from a tactical encounter, those damaged ships, which can be largely repaired at sea, can reappear behind a task force that had been blocking their path forward.

I usually attack from upwind and concentrate my fire on the nearest exposed ship. When they're either sunk or fall back, I switch to the next-nearest exposed ship. They generally can't repair faster than I can knock them out.

[MizuYuuki]

Originally posted by Markus1987:

In more recent parts, e.g. Fighting Steel, smoke was also used for retreat coverage, never for an attack, which is also logical

The AI appears to be using smoke when a ship takes damage in order to limit further damage. It's not basing the decision to use smoke on retreating. Not all AI ships that are retreating turn on smoke.

You can use smoke for attack in War on the Sea. In fact, it makes no difference which way the target is moving. In custom battle, with two Tone CA 10,000 yds apart in clear visibility the solution when one CA targets the other CA is 90%. If the target ship turns on smoke, the solution drops to 70%. It is 70% no matter which direction the target is moving: parallel to you, toward you, away from you , into the wind or with the wind. It makes no difference if the smoke appears to be obscuring the target ship or not. On the other hand, with a DD making smoke half way between the two CAs, that will drop the to solution to 70% when the smoke obscures the target ship. If the target ship then turns on smoke, there is no additional effect on target solution.

[IRDCAM]

Smoke in modern (post 1897) naval warfare is a norm, screening smoke gives your battle line or individual ships something to hide behind to reposition your ships and throw off the enemies fire solutions. It took time to recalculate these solutions on old 'analog' systems, unlike modern radar controled systems, and radar in 1942 was primitive and took a lot of practice reason why fire directors were still maintained. Look at the USS Texas, walk the ship, even the USS New Jersey video series, anolog systems were prime systems well into late war years.

The damage smoke the AI has is just that smoke generated by damage and fire on his ships, yours do as well. The USN even used aircraft delivered smoke in this era as well, in specially designed under wing pods carried by SBD's and TBD's (not in game the pre TBF torpedo plane). Throwing off the enemies firing solutions with smoke for even a few minutes can change a battle.

Stop over thinking the situation with all the minutia. You see smoke go manual solutions and keep shooting where you think he will be.

[MizuYuuki]

Originally posted by Cpl. Hicks:

Surface battles with a decisive outcome were rare, end when they did happen, they became pretty much legendary.

I agree, but how does that fit in with the campaign design in this game where an invasion force, that has to be stopped, appears every day? You have to sink a lot of ships no matter how unrealistic that is, and you have to do it without taking serious losses or using a lot of ammunition. I can do it using airplanes, and don't see any reason to commit my CA task force to engaging these unlimited AI invasion task forces. The mission of my CA task force is to protect my CV task force so that it can't be forced out of position back up the slot.

I don't care about smoke in an encounter between two task forces or if fewer ships get sunk because those forces have been built with command points (except those small AI patrol task forces). I've never lost that type of encounter, and there's time to rearm after a major encounter or replace ships that need to be repaired because both sides have to regroup. However, I'm not interested in using a task force to contest an unlimited resource. That's a war of attrition that the AI can't loose. So, I'll just keep using airplanes which are themselves unlimited.