The Ban/Pick AI needs a rework

[Ulminati]

Right now, it feels like the AI is just picking bans at random. 'm 2-0 in a final, and my jungler has averaged 9.8 rating on Zealot, with which the jungler is legendary. My jungler has the most MVPs on the team, it feels weird that the AI doesn't use any of its first 3 bans or its first pick to deny the hero to me.

In fact, it feels like the AI bans are entirely random, frequently choosing to ban heroes my team has never once used in a competitive match. It's a bit of a bummer, since it never forces me to diverge from my main team composition, and it doesn't feel like the AI is responding to how the players are doing.

I'd like to see the AI reworked so it does something along the lines of:

-> Run through all my players. Assign each of them a "threat rating" composed of some kind of weight of: [Average Rating post game], [Times MVP/SVP], [Stats compared to same player on their team]

-> Run through all the champions my player knows and assign them a "threat rating" with some kind of weighting of [times picked in the last 10 games], [times picked overall], [average rating post game on that champion], [average KDA with that champion]

-> Combine "player threat" + "hero threat" and make a sorted list of how dangerous characters are in the hands of my team. When banning/picking, prioritise banning champions higher on the list and if the AI has a champion high on the threat list it wants to pick, consider picking it early to deny it to me.

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This should be fairly easy to code as the statistics are already stored in the save game for the end of season summaries. It will make it feel like the opposing team is responding to how you are doing, and it'll force the player to play more varied teams as their main picks get banned. Which in turn will make games more varied and interesting.

The threat rating of player+champ can then also be used in game to help the AI decide which champtions to try to target for early ganks/field damage if it thinks it can stack the odds in its favor.

[TheRogueFedora]

I don't know if it's random, but it's def wonky. I just went through the league 2 playoffs and I swear every 1st ban went to Wukong no matter what. Meanwhile my MID uses Justice and averages over 9.0 this season with the most MVPs on my team.

[Axariel]

Some bans seem random to me, but for the most part, the AI is doing what you are saying it should do OR the AI is banning counters for its picks. I am at the end (I don't think there is an end?) of hell mode, and the only weird thing that I will see is that the game will ban a champ that I only have for a filled role. I would not be surprised if it thinks the champ would be a counter in the other role that is not filled. I think every time I have seen this it was Lubos when I had already picked Reinhardt.

Edit: I also think the AI is fairly good at picking.

[Ulminati]

I think it's maybe 1 game in 10 it's stopping me from picking one of my "main" heroes that my team does consistently well with. You'd think a players pick/win rate with a certain hero would factor more heavily into what the computer bans. withthe amount of times it bans underwhelming heroes I've never played instead of the ones I'm legendary exp on, I'm pretty sure it's mostly completely random.

[Deworx]

Well, for me : i Played Bart every single game when i started on hell mode, starting mid-league 2 i had Bart banned every single game tho. But yeah.. enemy never banned Niels, even tho he is mvp 95% of the time.

[Janekk]

AI is actively banning counter picks and counter picking also picks champions that synergise with each other, like getting Paulu with Niels or Bariel in botlane. It also bans champions that synergise with your picks, like champs that generate bounties when you have Mo picked. It also avoids picking stuff that's already countered by your picks. Most noticeable with Wukong. First pick it and AI will avoid anything with debuff like a plague. Frankly AI will tend to avoid picking debuffers if Wukong is even open at all. Sure it does make mistakes at times but you know what? So am I. I mean I literally just picked Lan while the succubus (whatever was her name) was open and it was one of the best champions for opposing midlaner at that.

Are you playing on hardest AI difficulty for P/B?

[unripe mango]

the banning AI seems to assume you're equally likely to play any hero in your pool, it's probably incapable of looking at your own pick history/pick rates. i guess it would be kinda easy to trap the AI into getting counterpicked if it did.

i'm in a league 1 where lan has been permabanned against me every game, after a league 2 where lan dominated every top lane and got buffed to the moon by league 1 rule/item changes. but i've also seen miki catch a lot of bans despite rule changes making him really weak.

[Ulminati]

The AI definitely seems to value if a hero is assumed to be a "counter" way more than your actual stats with them. The pre-game comparison shows both players 3 most picked heroes. And the pick/ban screen shows you each players proficency level with a given hero. But the AI will cheerfully ban green heroes I've never played over my legendary mains, playing on hard.

This is information that *should* be available to the opposing coach. And I'm definitely noting down if the opposing team has heroes in their top played that would be a problem so I know to ban them. So the AI coach should be trying to disrupt my game plan too.


The scattershot approach the AI uses to bans also means there's no reason not to max out hero pools with stuff you never intend to play. It just gives the AI more chances to make pointless bans.

[the tim]

This has been discussed and still is alot on their Discord.

Im in the camp that the AI isnt that terrible at picking banning and counter-picking etc in the ban/pick phase.

Esp. compared to how "bad" it was in the Demo just before the Full Release :) So I might still be in like, "that headspace" :P

For I am also more and more in the camp, that at the really high levels, Like playing at the hardest diffculty (hell+ as I like to phrase it) and being at the Premiere Leauge and such.

At that which is currently the highest level of the game (right?).

There it would make sense asw a be ya know nice asf if the AI really really was good at things like that :)

And as I have said on the Discord. For instance that would be if the AI showed that it did indeed research your recent matches and sees when you are A: going for that hero thats been your MVP 3 straigh matches now and B: see that your going for exactly the same comps you have done all season.

Because no. It doesnt seem to do that. I seems to have its own secret tier-list or coach notes that looks heavily into synergies and comps, as I do see that it changes its bans (and picks) most of my matches if I also make different choices at least.

But it still doesnt see that Im going for Mo + Kid + Blocker + Beiji + Reinhard = my own ultimate draw card making Mo bounty happy happy comp

Which would feel like a fun extra challenge at that point in the late game. Because at the start of my Hell+ run it felt more like that when I got denied the Heroes I just so happend to have good mastery with that I actually wanted.

[Postman Pat]

I'm not sure if it's random, I've had the AI target ban my athletes before. I'm not sure how complicated the AI is exactly, or what it's parameters are, but I've been caught off guard when I was still learning champs by how it would build teams with synergies that I didn't understand.

I think it generally tries to pick the best heroes for its own players, and then bans around options that are 'weak' against those. It obviously has its own "coach notes" like The Tim said. But I have also seen them just try to ban my best available options - happens to my support who is a Charon expert quite frequently. Thankfully, I have a few other tricks up my sleeve and the Charon ban is almost a bait at this point.

I've actually learned quite a bit from what the AI will pick or and ban. The AI can't ban everything. Just like in a real MOBA, sometimes the answer is not to just target ban the enemy "MVP" but focus on constructing a team and playing around it. I think the AI is pretty good at trying to do that. MY goal is to have counterpick options available - particularly for my top laner - and then use my bans to disrupt what I think they're trying to piece together.

I think the AI's biggest weakness is not that it will ban or not ban certain things, but it often won't COUNTER PICK you by using picks against you.

[the tim]

Yeah we can kinda all pool together and understand kinda more about what its doing in its picks/bans atm.

I also noticed it seems to ban newly released heroes asw (?). And at a point where I had really high mastery on one hero vs others. That one usually got banned alot.

But now when I have lots of Legends and Champions. It can pretty often just ban something at a lower Mastery. Then yet again they are probably looking as you said on countering my stuff or counters against their comp or planned comp.

[Postman Pat]

Yeah I think the developer probably has a few team comps pre-created for the AIs, and they prefer those, and ban against them. It's not like this AI is Stockfish or something, and it's also not a human player. It has to have 'definitions' somewhere. But it's reasonably competent for what it is IMO.

I think a bigger problem is probably how it spend all its energy every turn, it doesn't really seem to horde cards for plays later on. That kind of decision making probably could get improved.

[the tim]

Originally posted by Postman Pat:

Yeah I think the developer probably has a few team comps pre-created for the AIs, and they prefer those, and ban against them. It's not like this AI is Stockfish or something, and it's also not a human player. It has to have 'definitions' somewhere. But it's reasonably competent for what it is IMO.

I think a bigger problem is probably how it spend all its energy every turn, it doesn't really seem to horde cards for plays later on. That kind of decision making probably could get improved.

Yes I agree on this. They usually are very predictable on their deployment phases with among other things their use of SP. But I have sometimes faced teams that actually saves SP, so idk, sometimes the AI kinda suprises you :)

[ricky.brooks]

Originally posted by Postman Pat:

Yeah I think the developer probably has a few team comps pre-created for the AIs, and they prefer those, and ban against them. It's not like this AI is Stockfish or something, and it's also not a human player. It has to have 'definitions' somewhere. But it's reasonably competent for what it is IMO.

I think a bigger problem is probably how it spend all its energy every turn, it doesn't really seem to horde cards for plays later on. That kind of decision making probably could get improved.

It would be reasonably competent if it considered champion mastery in that equation. Right now the competency depends entirely on if you play champions the AI fears.

[Axariel]

I just feel like many complaints are either exaggerated or are based on low-difficulty play a lot of the time.

It is weird that the AI stopped banning Niels at some point, but if it is looking at how I won my last games it makes some sense. If they do ban Niels, I will probably play Elemi and let the AI win teamfights and push mid while I push bot at a faster pace. If they wanted to shut down my primary strats, they would be forced into letting me pick Bart, or Peter, or Hass into buffs, or Wukong into debuffs.

If I were to ban against me, I would use my first bans on Bart and Blocker, which does happen. I would also use my first picks on the best tanks or Dylan. For the most part though, they ban Hass and Bart; that also makes some sense to me. Then they prioritize picking good champs for roles that I mostly ignore with a few exceptions.

Part of the problem is that there is a sort of pattern to how the AI bans, and I can usually sneak in half a win con with my first pick and the other half with my second. I have also had games where I completely lost at the ban pick phase or felt that way.

If you want to talk about what makes the AI terrible, there are common plays and choices that it will make that amount to throwing the game. If that was fixed, it wouldn't matter if the game gave you the champs you like unless your stats are better.

[Axariel]

Originally posted by ricky.brooks:

It would be reasonably competent if it considered champion mastery in that equation. Right now the competency depends entirely on if you play champions the AI fears.

It absolutely does on higher difficulties.