Real Talk: Cell Needs a Rework

[FableNights]

When Cell was out in the Closed Beta, he was the only Raider we had. He was considered to be quite strong as the Raider was consistently winning games, stomping newer survivors and generally speaking, being a menace. We assumed that since Cell has a gimped lv1, that either all Raiders would be similarly gimped in some manner or that Cell was just THAT strong.

Come the open Beta, we now have Frieza AND Cell and with how ridiculous Lv1 Frieza was, the only thing that seemed to hold him back at the time was the lack of Ki Sense. Sure, we had similar tools today that we had in the open beta, and while players were getting better, both Raiders and Survivors still hadn't figured out the optimal ways to play.
Frieza was considered to be stronger, but not by much. It was a 53% Frieza to 47% Cell for Raider wins iirc.

Open Beta slams back open all of a sudden and with more time in the game, it was clear Raider wasn't in a great spot. Survivors were figuring out what to do, had a better grasp of the tools in their kit, and with only a fraction of the time to get good as Raider, strategies were made to help compensate for the lack of experience.

Camping Survivors really never got anywhere unless you camped 2 of them and even then, only newer players would fall for it.

Tired of Lv4s ruining your day? Use your Area Destruction to stop the Shenron summon! That should slow them down!

Then came camping Keys. Survivors can't summon the STM if you camp the final area and are diligent. Worked better in some areas vs others, but still a strong strategy that requires actual teamwork to combat.

And here we are today: About to hit the Autumn Campaign.

Words are being thrown left and right: Frieza is OP, he can cover so many areas at once!
Buu is OP, have you seen Spopavich, he can easily kill a lv3 all by himself!

But no one is saying 'Cell is OP'. Hell, many are saying the only reason Cell is even still playable is because of Ki Sense, but as Survivors are figuring out: If your faster then his Ki Blasts, he can't hit you!

---

Gonna lay it straight. Larva Cell shouldn't be Cell's first form anymore. It's a neat reference to how Cell first arrived after the time machine landed, but comparatively speaking, it sucks.

Lv1 Raider

Frieza and Spopavich are both menaces in their own right, but Frieza is arguably the stronger one of the two. Longer Ki Blasts, can cover more ground, and generally has solid supers.

At the bottom of the ladder is Cell, but hey, it's just his Larva form, surely Lv2 Cell is a BEAST to make up for the lost time, right?

Lv2 Raider

Frieza lv2 once again taking the title for strongest raider of this level and it's not even a contest. HUGE Combo damage, solid supers for both picking bikes AND taking out Roll Spammers. 2 Scouts to send out to cover ground and his Ki Blasts ♥♥♥♥♥.

Buu has an extremely solid, quick moving stun that can follow up into more damage or even downing a survivor if they're unlucky. Both him and Frieza have similar escape tools of AoE damage that pushes away, and his supers are nice with one of them sporting high, chunky damage.

Cell Lv2. Hi Cell, bottom of the ladder again? Well let's see what you have.
Low Combo damage. Both his specials fulfill the same purpose with one being much better then the other just because it has an explosion at the end for popping bikes. And his Ki Blast spam is... underwhelming. While Buu's isn't great, it can at least pick off Survivors with how many he throws out in a volley.
Cell's Ki Sense is truly the only thing keeping him good, but sadly even Survivors are finding ways around that simply by going REALLY ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ FAST.

Maybe he has better luck at Lv3?

Lv3 Raider

Damage, for once it's not Frieza, but Buu! Buu takes the top spot with excellent Ki Blasts, Great Supers, Amazing Actives (Has Ki Sense, take that Cell), and his Combos drop Survivors. Buu also has the lv3 to 4 gimmick of summoning every one into an Arena that they HAVE to escape, but honestly, any Good Buu player ends the game in that arena, hands down.

Frieza? Dude lost his amazing Ki Blasts, but they're still decent enough. Same great actives, has a lv3 Volley Super like everyone else and his Death Beam makes Survivor SBC blush with how effective it is. Combos slap and... oh no... Cell...

Hi Cell. Bottom of the Barrel, huh? So soon too, I'm kinda disappointed. Buu does everything you do at this level, but better. What makes you different?
Your Ki blast is a Kamehameha? Range of 300!? That sounds great for snipes, how about in combat? ♥♥♥♥? ♥♥♥♥. I'm sorry, maybe Lv4 is better, but seeing how bad you're doing doesn't leave me hopeful.

Lv4 Raider

Frieza. Ki Blasts.

Cell. Congrats Cell, you actually have a kit to box survivors now, but I hate to say it, but the game is over. Congrats. You did it. You got to lv4. You more then likely won now considering the hell of the game you just got through, but no one is gonna want to fight you.
Sporting the Highest Overall Damage and DPS in the entire game with a varied kit of actives that can get you out of any combat situation, but you don't get to play with any of it.

Frieza at least can throw some pizzas out against Survivors that are hopeful. You? Nah, you already stomped the entire lobby with the worst Raider in the game, they're not fighting you. GGs, you're finally not the worst. What about Buu? Oh...

Buu doesn't even get to this level, he already won or lost.

---

The very exasperated point I am trying to make is that, on paper, Cell is designed to hunt down Players with Ki Sense and to use his supers to clean them up at a distance.

In-game. Cell sucks.

Frieza and Spopvich already can hunt down players immediately and they have the ranged Ki Blasts to do it. Cell doesn't.

---

How to rework Cell? Well. In my honest opinion, all his forms should be toned down a level.
Imperfect Cell is Lv1, Ki Sense and everything. If he truly is designed to hunt down Survivors compared to the others, he should have all his tools to begin with. Don't change anything, not even his evasion.

Semi-Perfect at Lv2. The basic Ki Blasts can stay. It's a highly effective snipe.
Change his volley Super to something like Big Bang Attack and make it a huge explosion he shoots out with decent range. When aimed, it can deal with bikes.

Perfect Cell at Lv3. Lower his damage numbers and his Ultimate Super is swapped out with a Volley. He keeps the Energy Barrier, he keeps his massive wave bomb. His Ki Blasts can stay too.

Lv3 to 4 gimmick because why not: Cell can't evolve to Lv4 by simply gathering enough energy. He has to gather enough energy and be defeated in Combat. Once defeated, he will self destruct in the area he is in, akin to Area Destruction, taking the entire area with him and downing any survivors.
If he's in Area X, it doesn't blow it up, but it does span across the entire area, downing Survivors, Killing Civilians, and blowing away any consumables on the ground.
He's back with full health.

If the STM is in the area he's self destructing in, the Time Machine will Phase out to prevent being destroyed, only to return a few seconds after Lv4 Cell has spawned.

His damage is buffed to back to his current state. He gains a Ki Blast similar to Lv2 Frieza and Lv3 Buu, and retains his previous super along with the volley getting swapped out for his Ultimate Super.

Sounds likes Aids? Yeah. It's supposed to be. It's Super Perfect Cell. If he ain't ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ up your ♥♥♥♥, then why bother?

tl;dr I'm salty that Cell sucks.

[Your memes end here]

Cell is the weakest, but he has no glaring weaknesses that can be exploited in the same way the other raiders do. Frieza has no Ki tracking so relies on survivors throwing themselves in his line of sight. Buu has a harder time evolving and is usually stuck at evo 2.

[Maddonious]

So it does look like you put lots of thought and time into this post but I gotta say as a mainly Cell player he can be quite strong depending on luck and area you start in. If you go to the city for example you can basically eat up every victim you can find and rapidly level up to make sure none of the survivors can fight back against you. Now in unlucky games you do level a bit slower and Cell certainly does have a speed issue with regards of how slow the ki blasts fly.

I think the level 1 should stay the same since once you level it up it only takes 2 victims but I could also see Cell as being the most balanced atm.

[FableNights]

Originally posted by Maddonious:

So it does look like you put lots of thought and time into this post but I gotta say as a mainly Cell player he can be quite strong depending on luck and area you start in. If you go to the city for example you can basically eat up every victim you can find and rapidly level up to make sure none of the survivors can fight back against you. Now in unlucky games you do level a bit slower and Cell certainly does have a speed issue with regards of how slow the ki blasts fly.

I think the level 1 should stay the same since once you level it up it only takes 2 victims but I could also see Cell as being the most balanced atm.

Considering how luck is against you and how much better Survivors overall are getting, it's getting to be pretty frequent that Cell is having a harder time even hitting lv3. I'm even talking about myself.

Yes, if you're lucky, you can soak up all the civilians you need to, but even at +20, that's still 7 Civilians that need to be bundled up in a single place for for to suck. Cell's map doesn't have that.

Buu and Frieza Maps? Maybe, but he also doesn't start in those areas at all. Wanna know who else only needs 7 Civilians to get to lv3? Buu. Instead of 2 and 5 for Cell, it's 4 and 3 for Buu.

The 'unlucky' games are getting more prevalent with each day the survivors get better. The only instance in which you're doing great as Cell is if you have a Lucky start and the Survivors have an Unlucky start, but considering they have 7 sets of hands and you have to spend 20 seconds minimum not hunting them (because you're eating civis and evolving), things can spiral out of control real fast.

Survivors are getting much better at simply just surviving. Rolling is extremely strong. Grapple Device is by far the best skill in the game, and people are starting to realize just how strong Bulma's Bike is and are taking advantage of it fully.

Personally. I don't want to queue up a game as Raider and 'hope' I get lucky with spawns. I'd rather spawn in as Lv1 Frieza or Spopavich and go to where I know survivors have spawned and start hunting immediately. If I down one? Good ♥♥♥♥. Two? I just hit lv2. Any more then that and it's an easy game for me.

It's only Cell that has this problem.

The way the game intends you to play Raider (Hunt Civis to level up so you can then hunt Survivors) isn't the way Raider is actually played. Many good Raiders don't bother with Civis unless it's the final drop they need to level up. Many hunt down Survivors and Cell is getting worse by the day.

[FableNights]

Originally posted by Your memes end here:

Cell is the weakest, but he has no glaring weaknesses that can be exploited in the same way the other raiders do. Frieza has no Ki tracking so relies on survivors throwing themselves in his line of sight. Buu has a harder time evolving and is usually stuck at evo 2.

Buu and Cell take the same amount of Civilians to evolve to lv3. So if Buu is getting stuck at Lv2, do you genuinely think Cell is going to stand a chance? At least Buu has AoE damage. Cell has ♥♥♥♥.

[Maddonious]

Originally posted by LunarFrost:

words

Cells map does have a strong central civilian area tho, it's the city. While Frieza and Buu can be more aggressive starting out Cell can not so don't feel shame in hunting down civilians if need be as survivors are indeed learning to run from cell outside of special attacks. Head to the city first, clear it out, blow up the zones next to the city and prevent them from finding/planting the key there (at least on the default map). Another benefit you may wanna look into that people are sleeping on is vending machines. Destroy them asap as I have used them constantly to gain charge, sodas, rockets when in need of supplies during the STM phase. You take those out and you don't realize how much worse off the survivors are.

I'm not saying this will fix things and this is a strategy any raider can use but that's how I start my Cell games out and I outlevel then hunt for survivors. Level 3 cell with the multihit special is no joke.

Edit: forgot to add at least always carry one dragonball on you at all times and to pick it back up if you happen to drop it. This prevents them from going special beam cannon mode on your behind and forces them to engage you if they want it so badly or if it's their only chance.

[FableNights]

Originally posted by Maddonious:

Originally posted by LunarFrost:

words

Cells map does have a strong central civilian area tho, it's the city. While Frieza and Buu can be more aggressive starting out Cell can not so don't feel shame in hunting down civilians if need be as survivors are indeed learning to run from cell outside of special attacks. Head to the city first, clear it out, blow up the zones next to the city and prevent them from finding/planting the key there (at least on the default map). Another benefit you may wanna look into that people are sleeping on is vending machines. Destroy them asap as I have used them constantly to gain charge, sodas, rockets when in need of supplies during the STM phase. You take those out and you don't realize how much worse off the survivors are.

I'm not saying this will fix things and this is a strategy any raider can use but that's how I start my Cell games out and I outlevel then hunt for survivors. Level 3 cell with the multihit special is no joke.

Edit: forgot to add at least always carry one dragonball on you at all times and to pick it back up if you happen to drop it. This prevents them from going special beam cannon mode on your behind and forces them to engage you if they want it so badly or if it's their only chance.

It's not about 'feeling' shame to hunt for civilians. It's the fact that it's, by all accounts, better to hunt for Survivors. While you're hunting down those 7 civilians you need, you have 7 survivors collecting keys, balls, and dragon change power, which they can get from saving civilians.

And while I'm aware the City CAN have a lot of civilians, usually 3 people spawn directly in the city. So it's cleared out by the time you get there. It's all of matter of 'having a lucky start' as Cell. Why rely on luck as a Lv1 AND a Lv2 Cell when a lv1 Frieza or Spopavich can just fly over and start killing Survivors immediately?

[Your memes end here]

Originally posted by LunarFrost:

Originally posted by Your memes end here:

Cell is the weakest, but he has no glaring weaknesses that can be exploited in the same way the other raiders do. Frieza has no Ki tracking so relies on survivors throwing themselves in his line of sight. Buu has a harder time evolving and is usually stuck at evo 2.

Buu and Cell take the same amount of Civilians to evolve to lv3. So if Buu is getting stuck at Lv2, do you genuinely think Cell is going to stand a chance? At least Buu has AoE damage. Cell has ♥♥♥♥.

Same amount, but harder time finding those survivors. Frieza has no ki sense. Buu doesn't get it until evo 3. Which means cell has a way of finding survivors that can't be countered as early as a minute into the game. He can find survivors the easiest - but is the weakest in a fight. That's by design.

[Kashra Fall]

/me laughs in SBC sniping from the top of the map. Cell is fine =P.

[Mr. Californication]

Real Tawk

[TiggaWatt]

Super Perfect Cell would be an amazing Lv4 in my opinion, if and only if we remove the Lv1. I think a good fix would just be to allow any civvie to immediately fill Cells evolve instead of needing 2. Like sure rng and all that but I actually very recently played against a Cell who was stuck in Larval Form for 5 minutes because of the rng, so its a double edged sword.

[TiggaWatt]

Originally posted by Kashra Fall:

/me laughs in SBC sniping from the top of the map. Cell is fine =P.

Spits in High Gothic.

[Deathraven13]

Cell is good, he's just hard to master. He's better than Buu and Frieza once you have mastered him and he his great against premades because thanks to his fast evolving it's hard to kill a player who have mastered Cell and if they key rush they'll just lose in the end.

So Cell doesn't need a buff nor a nerf, it's coming from a main Cell, while I'll be biased to seeing Cell getting some buffs if I put that aside he is not weak, I don't know his winrate and winrate against a full random team but when we occasionnaly do decide to break the team and go solo raider we are having a better winrate than our friends (sadly my friend who own the game is the second main Cell so we have less match but a Cell at +100), they do believe that Cell is weak because they main Buu and Frieza (they have different playstyles after all) but when they watch the stream when we are solo raiding they do find it entertaining, especialy sniping survivors who use a bike wich is a miracle since I would prefer to use a mouse rather than the switch controller.

Maybe what we really need is nerf survivors because when playing as premades we rarely lose, 5 premades can pretty much destroy the raider in battle wich mean we tend to kill Frieza and Buu players before they can reach level 3 most of the time, against a Cell player it's a bit more difficult but not impossible.

If i remember right Buu can heal a bit by absorbing people but he is so weak that if we can go in he usualy dead. Ki sense is good and all but with a group of 2 and 3 players working "close" to each other they won't get much work done, aside for spopovitch who can still a bit of energy if we are not careful or at level 0 (unlucky), all of this to say that as premades we are having more trouble killing Cell and winning with Cell requiere you to understand the character, stop for a bit and listen, ki sense allow you to see in the smoke bomb, special beam canon as a very good range and a good AOE.

[Mystic Gremblin]

So what would he need? Increase hi ki blast speed by about 20% and maybe an extra bar of health starting at level 2?

[Yian Yan]

Originally posted by LunarFrost:

...
Lv1 Raider

Frieza and Spopavich are both menaces in their own right, but Frieza is arguably the stronger one of the two. Longer Ki Blasts, can cover more ground, and generally has solid supers.

At the bottom of the ladder is Cell, but hey, it's just his Larva form, surely Lv2 Cell is a BEAST to make up for the lost time, right?

Lv1 Cell levels off of 2 civilians or 2 Survivors. His strength is how absurdly fast he hits level 2 which gives him a hard advantage over any level 1 Survivor in melee.

Originally posted by LunarFrost:

Lv2 Raider

Frieza lv2 once again taking the title for strongest raider of this level and it's not even a contest. HUGE Combo damage, solid supers for both picking bikes AND taking out Roll Spammers. 2 Scouts to send out to cover ground and his Ki Blasts ♥♥♥♥♥.

Buu has an extremely solid, quick moving stun that can follow up into more damage or even downing a survivor if they're unlucky. Both him and Frieza have similar escape tools of AoE damage that pushes away, and his supers are nice with one of them sporting high, chunky damage.

Cell Lv2. Hi Cell, bottom of the ladder again? Well let's see what you have.
Low Combo damage. Both his specials fulfill the same purpose with one being much better then the other just because it has an explosion at the end for popping bikes. And his Ki Blast spam is... underwhelming. While Buu's isn't great, it can at least pick off Survivors with how many he throws out in a volley.
Cell's Ki Sense is truly the only thing keeping him good, but sadly even Survivors are finding ways around that simply by going REALLY ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ FAST.

Cell hardly loses the level 2 game: Buu has nice supers but neither have extreme range like Full Power Energy Wave. Frieza probably wins out but Buu suffers in extreme long range options and you're completely ignoring that Cell has Ki Detection at level 2 along with an evasive that, yes, doesn't do damage, but lets him rapidly reposition, including towards an objective you need to be at ASAP.

Originally posted by LunarFrost:

Lv3 Raider

Damage, for once it's not Frieza, but Buu! Buu takes the top spot with excellent Ki Blasts, Great Supers, Amazing Actives (Has Ki Sense, take that Cell), and his Combos drop Survivors. Buu also has the lv3 to 4 gimmick of summoning every one into an Arena that they HAVE to escape, but honestly, any Good Buu player ends the game in that arena, hands down.

Frieza? Dude lost his amazing Ki Blasts, but they're still decent enough. Same great actives, has a lv3 Volley Super like everyone else and his Death Beam makes Survivor SBC blush with how effective it is. Combos slap and... oh no... Cell...

Hi Cell. Bottom of the Barrel, huh? So soon too, I'm kinda disappointed. Buu does everything you do at this level, but better. What makes you different?
Your Ki blast is a Kamehameha? Range of 300!? That sounds great for snipes, how about in combat? ♥♥♥♥? ♥♥♥♥. I'm sorry, maybe Lv4 is better, but seeing how bad you're doing doesn't leave me hopeful.

Cell is far from the bottom of the barrel here. His Full Power Energy Blast Volley is the shortest cooldown of any of the Raiders while having extreme range, width, and consistency. That 300 range Kamehameha is excellent for denying objectives way beyond range.

Cell hardly sucks, he's very powerful he's just not the absurdity that is Frieza or the newbie stomper Buu is. He's the "honest" Raider. And he's strong.

[Corseth]

I'm really struggling with the time machine fight as Cell. Typically reach it at level 3 (Imperfect Cell). If I'm down to 4 survivors as Frieza or level 3+ Buu I feel I can win, but not as Cell.

Cell just feels extraordinarily easy to stun-lock because you can melee him out of his ki blast without using a survivor skill (because of the start-up frames of Imperfect Cell's kamehameha ki-blast and his supers), which you can't really do to Frieza (ki blast and death ray come out super fast) or Buu (He can gum person then punish the other). I've yet to figure out what works for 2 survivors just chasing you around meleeing at you while the rest start up the time machine, because I can't reliably land damage on them to reduce their D-change. If I afterimage to get space from melee attacks, they just use a stun then to close the distance and resume spamming melee on me.

If anyone has some tips I could sure use them, as it's been very frustrating to be on track with power and downed survivors, but then just get helplessly juggled forever by as little as 2 survivors at the time machine.