This isn't P2W! And here is why:

[Razak]

With 25 days remaining, I have unlocked every customizable in the game, as well as every tower.
I got VIP on the 2nd day.
So it should only take about 15 days of playing to get an adequat amount of monkey money.

How is that P2W?
I didn't unlock towers with the extra money. That went into cosmetics (Heroes are only 6k total to unlock)
You can EASILY play the game and have everything that VIPs have as well.
I didn't get a "deal more damage" card.
Yes leveling your tower is slower. And I do think that is kinda bad, but not a dealbreaker.
BUT not P2W. You obviously have never played P2W games. Where no matter how much you played, you would never be on equal footing with a guy and his "Dragonaxe" that somehow deals double the damage than your lucky lvl 80 drop from the hardest dungeon that you farmed for weeks.

It is a free game that needs to make SOME money. And 5€ for a full pvp game to unlock everything is really REALLY cheap.

[Art]

Messaggio originale di DePhoegon:

Messaggio originale di Art:

I like how because you know you are losing, you've reverted to calling me childish and silly names. No wonder I keep winning on this game with no VIP if it's people like you I am facing...

It will become fair once the first season resets. Then it will be a non-P"W, good game. But for now, in the opening weeks of the game, the booster you get with VIP is giving you a large advantage over players without it, as you are able to unlock better towers and hero's much much quicker. But like I said, by the end of this season, it will no longer be like that, and most of the free players will have caught up.

Let's look forward to then

I supposed I should now call you bad or something because you did it to me soooo.

You're bad.
Ha, got 'em.

Nah, it's honestly players like you that ruin games, and lead developers to make very bad choices.

Seriously it'll never end as an argument. Players will always say it's unfair they have to take x time to unlock what others already have and they are losing because of it.

Honestly.. I can't wait till the reset happens and players start complaining that vip gets to have all the cosmetics and start using borked math to add up.

How dare they monetize their game... How dare they have a vip 'subscription' like model from the start on a free game.

Let me know when your own logic comes to bite you in the ass when new players start complaining about how unfair it is they need to take time to unlock the towers after a reset or two...
-- Honestly, that's where your logic ends up.. 'how unfair they did it sooner.

Eh, your complaints won't end.. more heroes will be added and you'll spend the entire season crying about how dare vip be able to get it sooner, or any other unlocks that come along as the game gets developed.

Nope I won't. in all honestly, I don't care.

You really need to look up and study what P2W is, as you are kind of describing to me atm. Saying players get things faster if they pay (not cosmetics, but actual upgrades effecting gameplay) is actually P2W, and accords to the definition I wrote.

If anything, you are reinforcing my point every post you make by saying VIP's get upgrades and heros faster. That is my exact point.

Anyway, like I said, I could care less about what NK do to this game. I much prefer Battles 1 and BTD6 over this game, not because of the P2W, but because of a multitude of reasons.

But keep enjoying this game, as long as you're having fun, it doesn't really matter what the game does or the developers policies, if YOU are enjoying the game, good. Don't get hassled over what other people think of the game though, as it just causes you to type things you'll regret later, like saying I have a "mental defect", which is extremely offensive to those with them, and could potentially get you banned off the forums. You're lucky I don't have one or am sensitive, otherwise I would of reported you there and then.

[DePhoegon]

Messaggio originale di Tanos:

Messaggio originale di DePhoegon:

no, you can't get them in enough quantities to practice and get better. (it's honestly a different mentality than the base game)

The high end players can do those challanges, and afford them, get rewards from winning (because they are skilled enough), and suddenly end up able to get those race passes and practice.

BTD6, isn't P2w, so much as it is exceptionally abusive & greedy with it's monkey money.
-- Ya those power towers are kinda borked, but the irony of it all is that the players with the monkey dosh to spend, won't use them & don't need them unless they are doing a stupid challange for a video. and the players that would use them to get past a mistake can't afford to do it.

It smells like double standards. You think that BTD6 is too difficult for you and you don't have enough skills to pass difficult tests. But you also say that we would not whine about the BTB2 experience system and go learn to play. I can tell you the same thing about BTD6. Mind you, I'm using your own words. Stop whining and go learn to play. Even I can go through all the modes in BTD6. After 50 hours of absolutely unhurried play, I already had all the improvements for the towers, except for some 5. When I got tired of collecting money, I just hacked the game for money. It's that simple. I don't see anything wrong with that. This game is absolutely single player, and I bought this game so that I can do whatever I want with it.

Why do you need the first place in the race? To show everyone how cool you are. You will say that once there is a race in the game, that you want to take high places there and get rewards. Why do you need awards and trophies? For cosmetics? Why do you need cosmetics? Everything is perfectly played without it. NOTE THESE ARE YOUR WORDS ABOUT BTB2. I quote: "why do you need t5 if you only need t4, shut up and go learn to play." I'm telling you the same thing, why do you need first places and cosmetics if you can play without them?

Trophies are very easy to earn in Odyssey and Boss. I now have 200 trophies left and I do not know where to spend them, since I have already bought everything I need.

Yes, double standards, they are...

I never said BTD6 was too difficult. Quite seriously.. I know I'm not a 'top end player' with all the micro ability in the world.

You know the race awards and other stuff is for cosmetics right?

You know the difference here. . i can 'get back in, and try again', without the pay wall in the way.

Oh ya.. when you finally get enough trophies and unlock all the stuff..... great, but the fact is.... there is a barrier there that is cost related and you can't even continue to try on the races without paying.
(the boss modes are actually pretty damn' cool, and depsite lossing most the time because I still haven't learned what I needed to)

I said BTD6 was aggressively abusive in it's payment systems. Not that it was 'tooo hard'

Oh yes, proving my entire point about their money and monentization.. by cheating and hacking the game... good job. THe fact is, that the process is slow and abusive, on top of what ever your skill is, but is far worse on players who are still learning.
-- Yes, beating maps, to even black border them is a different kind of play style than races, bosses, and challanges. It is alot to learn, and gating entire systems of 'are you good enough' behind paywalls to attempt them again.

No my complaints about btd6 was that entire way it charges and makes money is exceptionally aggressive & abusive.. not that it was 'tooo hard'.

IF i could sit and redo race time and time again to practice and get timings right and not be afraid that screweing the attempt up will cost money... I would have sat down and done the same races for hours learning how to push it faster & better, and gotten better.

perhaps next time ya try to prove a point against someone who says a game monetary systems are aggressive and abusive.. you don't cheat & hack like a b*tch than think that wasn't partly because the game was meant to be a pain in the ass to get monkey dosh to do the things in game that you would like to do.

[Nikku]

Messaggio originale di Art:

Messaggio originale di DePhoegon:

2. or you thinking 'this' is p2w.. Oh 'they can get there towers fully unlocked before I can, and that's unfair...

hey, thanks for pointing out why it's P2W, super helpful!

the comparison of pay2win and pay2progress is where the first is described as
"offers the option to spend real-world money to get a huge advantage over the majority of players in a game. This can mean either you’ll get access to certain features or have exclusive items otherwise not available to other players. An example would be a game that offers you the most powerful weapon with insane stats no amount of grinding or leveling can ever achieve for a price, of course."
and the later as
"still paying for in-game benefits with pay to progress games, but this only serves to speed up your progress, be it a higher drop rate when looting, or twice the experience gained when defeating enemies. Think of it as a small nudge forward and nothing more.".

[Woody]

Messaggio originale di Nick:

Messaggio originale di Art:

hey, thanks for pointing out why it's P2W, super helpful!

the comparison of pay2win and pay2progress is where the first is described as
"offers the option to spend real-world money to get a huge advantage over the majority of players in a game. This can mean either you’ll get access to certain features or have exclusive items otherwise not available to other players. An example would be a game that offers you the most powerful weapon with insane stats no amount of grinding or leveling can ever achieve for a price, of course."
and the later as
"still paying for in-game benefits with pay to progress games, but this only serves to speed up your progress, be it a higher drop rate when looting, or twice the experience gained when defeating enemies. Think of it as a small nudge forward and nothing more.".

Can we agree that P2W and P2Progress are both terrible for a PVP battle arena game where we want both sides to have the same tools to make the game fair?

[CamManx]

Messaggio originale di Razak:

With 25 days remaining, I have unlocked every customizable in the game, as well as every tower.
I got VIP on the 2nd day.
So it should only take about 15 days of playing to get an adequat amount of monkey money.

lol that is flawed. You gained the exp at 3 times the rate so you had a gameplay advantage over those that didn't. You would have less wins with lower tier towers. The 3 times exp is more useful the higher you get on the ladder, have you not noticed how few people make it up the ladders without vip

[Nikku]

Messaggio originale di Woody:

Messaggio originale di Nick:

the comparison of pay2win and pay2progress is where the first is described as
"offers the option to spend real-world money to get a huge advantage over the majority of players in a game. This can mean either you’ll get access to certain features or have exclusive items otherwise not available to other players. An example would be a game that offers you the most powerful weapon with insane stats no amount of grinding or leveling can ever achieve for a price, of course."
and the later as
"still paying for in-game benefits with pay to progress games, but this only serves to speed up your progress, be it a higher drop rate when looting, or twice the experience gained when defeating enemies. Think of it as a small nudge forward and nothing more.".

Can we agree that P2W and P2Progress are both terrible for a PVP battle arena game where we want both sides to have the same tools to make the game fair?

For f2p games I don't think pay2progess is all that crazy even in this game however thats only if the free players dont have to mega grind for stuff but thats the problem with this game. The thing is theyre apparently buffing it in 1.0.4 so that problem should be solved so otherwise I'd say its not that bad. I think one is far worse than another. Yall think this is crazy but imagine if you had to pay money to get actual ingame advantages that no amount of grinding could get.

[Jeff Hopkins]

Messaggio originale di Razak:

P2W:
A constant advantage that you can not overcome by talent or time spent

I am endlessly amazed at all the ridiculous P2W definitions people pull out of thin air. You literally invented this definition to suit your argument.

P2W has always meant simply "spending money gives an advantage". That's it. Its not complicated. Its not an exact thing. Its not literally about getting a "win" state. If you can get ANY kind of advantage with money, its P2W. This is what its meant for over 20 years.

Like pretty much everything, there is a scale of how severe something is. Some games are more p2w than others. This game is objectively p2w. Its lower on the scale than some other games. There's nothing wrong with just saying you are comfortable with the degree of p2w in a game you like.

Edit: Also, "pay to progress" isn't a thing. This is one of the earliest nonsense things people came up with years ago to defend their game from being called out for P2W. It doesn't even logically make sense. People are saying this isn't p2w because you can technically progress without spending money. How is it p2progress if you can progress without paying??? Because its not a thing. If someone is saying something is p2progress, its p2w.

[DePhoegon]

Messaggio originale di Jeff Hopkins:

Messaggio originale di Razak:

P2W:
A constant advantage that you can not overcome by talent or time spent

I am endlessly amazed at all the ridiculous P2W definitions people pull out of thin air. You literally invented this definition to suit your argument.

P2W has always meant simply "spending money gives an advantage". That's it. Its not complicated. Its not an exact thing. Its not literally about getting a "win" state. If you can get ANY kind of advantage with money, its P2W. This is what its meant for over 20 years.

Like pretty much everything, there is a scale of how severe something is. Some games are more p2w than others. This game is objectively p2w. Its lower on the scale than some other games. There's nothing wrong with just saying you are comfortable with the degree of p2w in a game you like.

Edit: Also, "pay to progress" isn't a thing. This is one of the earliest nonsense things people came up with years ago to defend their game from being called out for P2W. It doesn't even logically make sense. People are saying this isn't p2w because you can technically progress without spending money. How is it p2progress if you can progress without paying??? Because its not a thing. If someone is saying something is p2progress, its p2w.

Careful with that definition of 'spending money gives an advantage'.
-I can argue that my Note 10+ I spent money on gives me an advantage over someone using a Samsung Galaxy Axx phone.
- I can argue that my Surface Pro 8 w/ w11, (i5) that was released months ago, gives me and advantage.
- I could argue my Home internet being as stable as it is, and as fast as it is... gives me an advantage.
- I could argue, my KB gives me an advantage over Mobile users.
- I could argue, my ability to quite literally use my PC KB&M on the mobile version of battles 2, gives me and advantage.
- I could argue the fact I've spare time & income to afford 'luxory nonsense' gives me and advantage in the games I play.. which includes.. my dude.... Bloons TD battles 2.

That definition is utter garbage, and is setup to drag players down on what will amount to immutable differences(for many a reason)

I could as easily argue.. you spending money on steam is paying to win, since you pay to progress your account. The stupidity of your argument is that what's a paid advantage or not is insanely subjective and surprise surprise ... almost entirely used when you think things are unfair without knowing jack about anything else in that setup.

WOuld you say it's pretty serve I could easily use my Desktop to play battles TD6? or quite literally use my phone to hook to a kb, m, & a monitor on it's own? How pay to win is that when most mobile users are forced to use touch. (mind you that there are more games than you know that fully support KB&M, because they had a pc version, and those shortcuts aren't removed in the mobile versions so much as alternate ways & buttons added.

Would you say that someone with a brand new pc, that doesn't even need to think twice about preformance has a serve advantage in this game, when the other person can't even spawn eco in above a 75% rate of normal, and if the other person dares to eco hard, their rate gets cut down and can even lag them out entirely.

[Woody]

Messaggio originale di DePhoegon:

Messaggio originale di Jeff Hopkins:

I am endlessly amazed at all the ridiculous P2W definitions people pull out of thin air. You literally invented this definition to suit your argument.

P2W has always meant simply "spending money gives an advantage". That's it. Its not complicated. Its not an exact thing. Its not literally about getting a "win" state. If you can get ANY kind of advantage with money, its P2W. This is what its meant for over 20 years.

Like pretty much everything, there is a scale of how severe something is. Some games are more p2w than others. This game is objectively p2w. Its lower on the scale than some other games. There's nothing wrong with just saying you are comfortable with the degree of p2w in a game you like.

Edit: Also, "pay to progress" isn't a thing. This is one of the earliest nonsense things people came up with years ago to defend their game from being called out for P2W. It doesn't even logically make sense. People are saying this isn't p2w because you can technically progress without spending money. How is it p2progress if you can progress without paying??? Because its not a thing. If someone is saying something is p2progress, its p2w.

Careful with that definition of 'spending money gives an advantage'.
-I can argue that my Note 10+ I spent money on gives me an advantage over someone using a Samsung Galaxy Axx phone.
- I can argue that my Surface Pro 8 w/ w11, (i5) that was released months ago, gives me and advantage.
- I could argue my Home internet being as stable as it is, and as fast as it is... gives me an advantage.
- I could argue, my KB gives me an advantage over Mobile users.
- I could argue, my ability to quite literally use my PC KB&M on the mobile version of battles 2, gives me and advantage.
- I could argue the fact I've spare time & income to afford 'luxory nonsense' gives me and advantage in the games I play.. which includes.. my dude.... Bloons TD battles 2.

That definition is utter garbage, and is setup to drag players down on what will amount to immutable differences(for many a reason)

I could as easily argue.. you spending money on steam is paying to win, since you pay to progress your account. The stupidity of your argument is that what's a paid advantage or not is insanely subjective and surprise surprise ... almost entirely used when you think things are unfair without knowing jack about anything else in that setup.

WOuld you say it's pretty serve I could easily use my Desktop to play battles TD6? or quite literally use my phone to hook to a kb, m, & a monitor on it's own? How pay to win is that when most mobile users are forced to use touch. (mind you that there are more games than you know that fully support KB&M, because they had a pc version, and those shortcuts aren't removed in the mobile versions so much as alternate ways & buttons added.

Would you say that someone with a brand new pc, that doesn't even need to think twice about preformance has a serve advantage in this game, when the other person can't even spawn eco in above a 75% rate of normal, and if the other person dares to eco hard, their rate gets cut down and can even lag them out entirely.

No one is making an argument about things outside of game though, we are talking about Bloons TD Battles 2. What you wrote is a strawman argument.

Jeff Hopkins is correct with his Pay2Win definition imo.

[DePhoegon]

Messaggio originale di Woody:

Messaggio originale di DePhoegon:

Careful with that definition of 'spending money gives an advantage'.
-I can argue that my Note 10+ I spent money on gives me an advantage over someone using a Samsung Galaxy Axx phone.
- I can argue that my Surface Pro 8 w/ w11, (i5) that was released months ago, gives me and advantage.
- I could argue my Home internet being as stable as it is, and as fast as it is... gives me an advantage.
- I could argue, my KB gives me an advantage over Mobile users.
- I could argue, my ability to quite literally use my PC KB&M on the mobile version of battles 2, gives me and advantage.
- I could argue the fact I've spare time & income to afford 'luxory nonsense' gives me and advantage in the games I play.. which includes.. my dude.... Bloons TD battles 2.

That definition is utter garbage, and is setup to drag players down on what will amount to immutable differences(for many a reason)

I could as easily argue.. you spending money on steam is paying to win, since you pay to progress your account. The stupidity of your argument is that what's a paid advantage or not is insanely subjective and surprise surprise ... almost entirely used when you think things are unfair without knowing jack about anything else in that setup.

WOuld you say it's pretty serve I could easily use my Desktop to play battles TD6? or quite literally use my phone to hook to a kb, m, & a monitor on it's own? How pay to win is that when most mobile users are forced to use touch. (mind you that there are more games than you know that fully support KB&M, because they had a pc version, and those shortcuts aren't removed in the mobile versions so much as alternate ways & buttons added.

Would you say that someone with a brand new pc, that doesn't even need to think twice about preformance has a serve advantage in this game, when the other person can't even spawn eco in above a 75% rate of normal, and if the other person dares to eco hard, their rate gets cut down and can even lag them out entirely.

No one is making an argument about things outside of game though, we are talking about Bloons TD Battles 2. What you wrote is a strawman argument.

Jeff Hopkins is correct with his Pay2Win definition imo.

That's the problem though... gaining and advantage by 'paying' is pay to win right? Where does that line actually stop?

Seriously, how cam you treat say even players fairly when even say a pixel 6(or newer), & a note 10 (or newer) the same?
- Not only does the note line come with a fine point 'stylius' as far as the game is concerned, it actively allows you pull fine control & movement to almost a mouse level easily.

This impact is multiple fold more weight on the outcome of a competitive match in battles 2.
-far more than vip ever could manage.

The problem is that the 'advantage' is so abused it's mental... to the point that it's over come with time or just regular play. This advantage requires 'demanding' something that's frankly unreasonable. Where does 'playing more & having towers unlocked faster' become ok, when vip to unlocking them faster doesn't?

This is a crazy broken line, and the logic behind it is.. 'well the devs earned money from one', while not making money off the others.

Damn'd weird that ACTUAL advantages that are leveraged via either premium HW or accessories don't make pay to win.. but at EXP boost that can't even do anything but unlock faster, and has no effect on the actual gameplay, eco, tower abilities, or placements is beying cried as p2w.

I'm kinda of sick of the abuse of the terms myself, and it's these same people whom give a pass to btd6, as if it wasn't a 'micro transaction' abuse center itself, with features that unless you where among the better players (which takes alot of practice), you'll have to pay alot of money to practice time and again... or end up grinding several times harder than even 'free players in battles 2' grind for tower unlocks.

[Nascarman]

Messaggio originale di DePhoegon:

Messaggio originale di Woody:

No one is making an argument about things outside of game though, we are talking about Bloons TD Battles 2. What you wrote is a strawman argument.

Jeff Hopkins is correct with his Pay2Win definition imo.

That's the problem though... gaining and advantage by 'paying' is pay to win right? Where does that line actually stop?

Seriously, how cam you treat say even players fairly when even say a pixel 6(or newer), & a note 10 (or newer) the same?
- Not only does the note line come with a fine point 'stylius' as far as the game is concerned, it actively allows you pull fine control & movement to almost a mouse level easily.

This impact is multiple fold more weight on the outcome of a competitive match in battles 2.
-far more than vip ever could manage.

The problem is that the 'advantage' is so abused it's mental... to the point that it's over come with time or just regular play. This advantage requires 'demanding' something that's frankly unreasonable. Where does 'playing more & having towers unlocked faster' become ok, when vip to unlocking them faster doesn't?

This is a crazy broken line, and the logic behind it is.. 'well the devs earned money from one', while not making money off the others.

Damn'd weird that ACTUAL advantages that are leveraged via either premium HW or accessories don't make pay to win.. but at EXP boost that can't even do anything but unlock faster, and has no effect on the actual gameplay, eco, tower abilities, or placements is beying cried as p2w.

I'm kinda of sick of the abuse of the terms myself, and it's these same people whom give a pass to btd6, as if it wasn't a 'micro transaction' abuse center itself, with features that unless you where among the better players (which takes alot of practice), you'll have to pay alot of money to practice time and again... or end up grinding several times harder than even 'free players in battles 2' grind for tower unlocks.

Stop. Please stop making a fool of yourself. Everything that you wrote here is just fluff for saying the game isn’t p2w, and if that’s all you wanna say then I’ll counter with a fairly easy example:

Let’s say you (a non-vip) are against someone who is a vip with the same amount of hours played as you. You both have tack shooter, alch and village. You as a non-vip have unlocked tack sprayer and berserker brew (+ maybe some other irrelevant t3s), while this vip has mib, overdrive and stronger stimulant. He can easily defend r26, but there’s no way in hell your tack sprayer spam is putting a dent in fortified ddts. He won cuz he paid, simple as that. If this game isn’t p2w, then in what way did this vip win that doesn’t involve his higher upgrades????

[Razak]

Messaggio originale di Nascarman:

...

Lets say you have a 2080ti while I have a laptop integrated graphics card.
You win becuase my pc can't hold up.

Is that P2W? Obviously not.

You know that guy that bought himself a chinese farmer that farms XP 20h a day?
He has better towers than a VIP. Is that P2W?

Every game is unfair to some people.

The ONLY viable question is:
Is there ANYTHING within the game that prevents players to be on equal footing in the long run.
If so, it is P2W. If not, it is not.

Honestly you people need to start playing browsergames (are they still a thing?) or mobile games.
Games that are free usually have INSANE boosters and bonuses for money.
And most of them are P2W because they offer rewards normal players simply can not achieve.


This isn't P2W. Saying it is because there is a temporary boost (that doesn't make much of a difference since everyone just goes tackshooter anyways) is simply sloppy argumentation.
I am sorry, but no. VIP is not P2W.
It is a subscription service that lets you progress a bit faster.
Nothing is stopping you from playing 3x more than me who doesn't have the time and patience to level that much.

[Nikku]

Messaggio originale di Jeff Hopkins:

Messaggio originale di Razak:

P2W:
A constant advantage that you can not overcome by talent or time spent

I am endlessly amazed at all the ridiculous P2W definitions people pull out of thin air. You literally invented this definition to suit your argument.

P2W has always meant simply "spending money gives an advantage". That's it. Its not complicated. Its not an exact thing. Its not literally about getting a "win" state. If you can get ANY kind of advantage with money, its P2W. This is what its meant for over 20 years.

Like pretty much everything, there is a scale of how severe something is. Some games are more p2w than others. This game is objectively p2w. Its lower on the scale than some other games. There's nothing wrong with just saying you are comfortable with the degree of p2w in a game you like.

Edit: Also, "pay to progress" isn't a thing. This is one of the earliest nonsense things people came up with years ago to defend their game from being called out for P2W. It doesn't even logically make sense. People are saying this isn't p2w because you can technically progress without spending money. How is it p2progress if you can progress without paying??? Because its not a thing. If someone is saying something is p2progress, its p2w.

That edit is literally the dumbest thing I've heard I'm sorry to say. You literally just said "How is it p2progress if you can progress without paying???" and I can't even believe you took a word with a definition and explanation to it and looked at it with the most straight forward, blunt and quite literal meaning. Pay2progress doesnt mean you cant progress without paying it means you pay to speed up progress but you still have to play to get things you cant just pay money and instantly get things. You dont just instantly get towers in this game by paying you have to still play for xp. Wtf even is that. It's not about defending the game inherently it's about calling the game what it is and not using a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ of a buzzword like p2w to upset the whole community and stop people from playing a game they would otherwise enjoy. If you actually genuinely think P2W is strictly defined as "spending money gives an advantage" then to be honest I don't even know why I'm bothering with this cause you're already so far gone.


For the third time, the comparison of pay2win and pay2progress is where the first is described as
"offers the option to spend real-world money to get a huge advantage over the majority of players in a game. This can mean either you’ll get access to certain features or have exclusive items otherwise not available to other players. An example would be a game that offers you the most powerful weapon with insane stats no amount of grinding or leveling can ever achieve for a price, of course."
and the later as
"still paying for in-game benefits with pay to progress games, but this only serves to speed up your progress, be it a higher drop rate when looting, or twice the experience gained when defeating enemies. Think of it as a small nudge forward and nothing more.".

Learn the difference. It is a thing, you just don't consider it a thing because you're like all these other people and are so brainwashed that a game can only be p2w. Try playing an actual p2w game where no amount of playing will get you the stuff you want, is nearly impossible to get or otherwise gives you top level stuff the second you start playing.

Edit: Even if you come to agree with the term I'm sure I'm just going to be told that the wording makes no difference and to that I disagree as well. I'd much rather play a p2progress game then a pay2win game (A FREE to play one at that). As I've stated in my other points before on the thread there are lots of people with way more time than me/others who they themselves don't have vip and no matter what they will have more stuff than us regardless if I had vip or not. The logic is just flawed overall, you will eventually verse someone thats nonvip with tier 4/5s and way more hours than you and the argument of "I only lost cause they paid" goes right out the window. Most people will only stick to a few strategies anyways, eventually they will have all tier 5s on everything they use just from playing and it will be an even playing field. I don't think that's a hard concept to wrap around.
Also just thought I'd add this as well. REGARDLESS if you're vip or not if you want to get xp for other towers you have to swap something out for a 2/2/2 tower and more than likely you'll lose when paired against someone with even just tier 4s. Sure you can just swap 1/3 towers and keep 2 maxed ones but thats just a time inefficient method and I'd much rather lose every game to level 3 towers at the same time than just one, I mean most of you are talking about hours played as an argument right? Makes sense to be smart with your time.

[Nascarman]

Messaggio originale di Razak:

Messaggio originale di Nascarman:

...

Lets say you have a 2080ti while I have a laptop integrated graphics card.
You win becuase my pc can't hold up.

Is that P2W? Obviously not.

You know that guy that bought himself a chinese farmer that farms XP 20h a day?
He has better towers than a VIP. Is that P2W?

Every game is unfair to some people.

The ONLY viable question is:
Is there ANYTHING within the game that prevents players to be on equal footing in the long run.
If so, it is P2W. If not, it is not.

Honestly you people need to start playing browsergames (are they still a thing?) or mobile games.
Games that are free usually have INSANE boosters and bonuses for money.
And most of them are P2W because they offer rewards normal players simply can not achieve.


This isn't P2W. Saying it is because there is a temporary boost (that doesn't make much of a difference since everyone just goes tackshooter anyways) is simply sloppy argumentation.
I am sorry, but no. VIP is not P2W.
It is a subscription service that lets you progress a bit faster.
Nothing is stopping you from playing 3x more than me who doesn't have the time and patience to level that much.

Your argument about graphics cards is invalid because it isn’t in the game, thus it doesn’t make any sense at all to include it when talking about p2w. If this is your best counterexample I fear you may be supporting a weak argument.

I was very careful in my argument, as I specified both players have equivalent hours. Considering most players in your trophy zone will have around the same hours unless you smurf, most of the time the vip will outclass you in tower rankings simply because he paid.

The only argument you’ve provided to counter is that it’s not p2w because it’s also play2win (more hours = more winning), and since you can play for 30 hours and beat a paying player who only spent 10 hours somehow this makes it ok that after 30 hours you are at the same progression as a 10 hour vip player. That’s seems pretty damn p2w in my book. That’s literally what most p2w games have, pay to level up faster/build things faster aka save your precious time with your precious dollars. Just because a non-vip player can reach the same level of progression after 3x as many hours doesn’t excuse the game from being p2w, since that in and of itself is p2w.

[Nikku]

Messaggio originale di Nascarman:

Messaggio originale di Razak:

Lets say you have a 2080ti while I have a laptop integrated graphics card.
You win becuase my pc can't hold up.

Is that P2W? Obviously not.

You know that guy that bought himself a chinese farmer that farms XP 20h a day?
He has better towers than a VIP. Is that P2W?

Every game is unfair to some people.

The ONLY viable question is:
Is there ANYTHING within the game that prevents players to be on equal footing in the long run.
If so, it is P2W. If not, it is not.

Honestly you people need to start playing browsergames (are they still a thing?) or mobile games.
Games that are free usually have INSANE boosters and bonuses for money.
And most of them are P2W because they offer rewards normal players simply can not achieve.


This isn't P2W. Saying it is because there is a temporary boost (that doesn't make much of a difference since everyone just goes tackshooter anyways) is simply sloppy argumentation.
I am sorry, but no. VIP is not P2W.
It is a subscription service that lets you progress a bit faster.
Nothing is stopping you from playing 3x more than me who doesn't have the time and patience to level that much.

That’s seems pretty damn p2w in my book. That’s literally what most p2w games have, pay to level up faster/build things faster aka save your precious time with your precious dollars.

That's not what p2w is. You'll reply to posts that have arguments you can say something against yet I had a solid argument just after and you just couldn't be asked to respond to it. SMH