Chalkes is insigificant, and he (and maybe a few other NPCs) need a rework

[abdolarn]

Hello everyone! I'd love to say that as of currently, I'm enjoying Baldi's Basics Plus! That said... I think one of the characters, Chalkles... Is so pathetic and insignificant, it's actually sad.

if you've played Baldi's Basics Plus you'd know that Chalkles is extremely insignificant, as even in a whole game of hide-and-seek, you won't notice him due to how easy he is. Chalkles punishes you if you stay too long in a classroom (15 seconds, to be exact) by trapping you in it for a bit of time, and attracting Baldi. The problem with this mechanic is that you can easily just leave a room if you notice that Chalkles is starting to form, and he'll instantly disappear. With that in mind, even if Chalkles is somehow close to forming completely, you can just exit a room and return to it, and he'll be gone.
In Baldi's Basics Plus, due to the game's speed, though, Chalkles is VERY easy to avoid. I kid you not, i only got Chalkles punishing me 3 TIMES throughout all of the time i played the game. One of these three, i just left by using Principal's Keys. You can enter a classroom and get a notebook before he appears, and he won't really get triggered unless another NPC slows you down, and gives Chalkles time to activate, OR the less likely, you just waste a lot of time. You almost have to intentionally stay in a room for him to activate.
In Classic Remastered, Chalkles IS a little less pathetic, as due to the slower pace, he has more time to activate. But again, you still can leave a classroom and return, and again, Chalkles barely happens to punish me. I still don't get why Mystman12 never buffed Chalkles when he sped up Baldi's Basics Plus, because if you simply played the game, you'd never know Chalkles was there.

Let's also talk about his "punishment". Chalkles traps you in a room for 15 seconds while laughing, attracts Baldi, and then he T R A N S C E N D S to the ceiling for 10 seconds, during which you can leave.
In general, Chalkles punishment isn't even that bad. As long as Baldi is far enough from you, he won't even enter the classroom while you're trapped. And even if he does, you can use any items at disposal, or, if he isn't fast enough, you can simply evade Baldi until Chalkles is done.
Oh, you thought THAT was bad? You ALSO have items which you can use to leave the classroom prematurely while Chalkles is trapping you. Principal's Keys, Portal Poster, Dangerous Teleporter. With these items, Chalkles is EVEN WEAKER.
Another note, but i've noticed Principal of the thing, Mrs Pomp, and Chalkles use the same mechanic of "trapping someone in a room for some time". I feel like while it works with Principal, Mrs Pomp and Chalkles just don't fit. Mrs Pomp especially, since i feel like missing Mrs Pomp's class should have a punishing fate, and currently, it just isn't. You can just escape Mrs Pomp and make use of items like the grappling hook, making her a bit of a joke. Like, what is it with characters trapping you in a room?

So not only is Chalkles easy to avoid, he ALSO has an easy punishment. That should give you an idea about how pathetic he is. I won't even be surprised if some people don't even know Chalkles is in the game, as he is THAT PATHETIC.

So how do you fix Chalkles? Good question! There are many ways to buff Chalkles and make him more significant. You can go simple, and just change Chalkles punish time and/or time he takes to form. Or, you can go creative and rework him entirely! Chalkles could slow you down the longer you are in a classroom, and if he forms completely, he gives you curse for a while, instead of trapping you in the classroom

You can also change Chalkles in his concept! Instead of lingering in an empty chalkboard, he can, let's say, overwrite existing chalkboards, or maybe even linger in the walls! I don't know, really, What i'm saying here is, Chalkles has potential, and he can be a fun character that works for you! There's just so many ways to change him, rather than keeping him nonexistent.

There's other NPCs that might need a rework, as well. I think Mrs Pomp needs a more punishing retribution for missing her class. After all, it needs to feel like you need to go the class, of course! Maybe she could drag the player throughput the whole building before bringing them to the class, to give the player more danger of getting caught by Baldi, and while we're at it, scatter some of the player's items throughout the way.
Cloudy Copter might as well blow wind AND suck wind, to give a bit more variation to him, as it'd make stuff more fun.

Other changes in characters could simply be quality-of-life. for example, Mrs Pomp's time indicator that appears in-screen to remind the player that they have to be in her class could appear using a dithering effect, like the one used for transitions currently. Chalkles could have a weird ripple-like effect as he forms, and while he is laughing.

Whatever it is, please make Chalkles harder to deal with. Please. I'd honestly prefer a character that's annoying as hell but is significant, rather than... Something like Chalkles. I hate It's a Bully due to him being a nuisance to death, but at least he's significant.

Thanks for reading! hope this was a fun read!

[Mc Mcarthy Jones]

..........I personally don’t think Chalkles is really meant to be a character that you get caught by regularly. I instead think they’re more of a prevention to the “sit in a room for five minutes until Baldi goes somewhere you want” strategy. When Chalkles catches you, (or if you make a noise well entering the room.) Baldi will tend to stay around that room, and not path-find too far aways.

..........That being said, I do agree Chalkles could use a bit of a buff. I like your idea of Chalkles appearing over already existing chalkboards, since a dedicated chalkboard for Chalkles doesn’t always appear, but a normal one usually does. You could also have Chalkles fade out over time instead of disappearing instantly when you leave a room, so that being sloppy and taking too long will waste even more time.

..........As for Mrs. Pomp, I don’t really agree with you on her punishment being changed. Remember that characters are supposed to have a way of helping you as well as harming you, and I think Mrs. Pomps punishment is supposed to be a more strategic take on that idea.

..........What I mean is, unlike 1st Prize appearing at a good time, or Playtime just giving you YTPs because screw interesting game design. In order to take advantage of Mrs. Pomp dragging you, you have to be really careful and plan ahead. You have to make sure Baldi isn’t in the way, you have to avoid entering classrooms before you want to be dragged, etc. etc. And if you’re careless Mrs. Pomp could be very problematic, or even just kill you!

..........Of course, if you don’t want to deal with how to take advantage of Mrs. Pomps dragging speed, you can always just go to her classroom and ALSO get YTPs! (Seriously, this is such a lame way of making characters “helpful.”) So I do agree that some adjustments for Mrs. Pomp are needed, but I don't agree with extreme things like her dragging you everywhere and tossing your items about.

..........I also disagree with the philosophy that being able to use items to avoid characters makes them weaker, because that's kinda the point? Like items are a tool for the player, and having to expand good items like a Dangerous Teleporter on someone like Chalkles is still a mistake on your part. Also items like the Principal Keys literally exist for this purpose, if you’re hauling around one of those you have to keep in mind that that’s one less item slot to be reserved for more active strategies.

[|i.c.c.n|]

Chalkles in BBCR is interesting. still not much of a threat, but in hard mode they could actually be a problem. thanks to the 3 questions per math machine and the higher tickrate overall, I had to consider them more often to avoid getting locked in on the small map.

I believe I've mentioned in a prior discussion about Chalkles that an idea I'd have for making them more of a threat is to simply not make the reset instant. if Chalkles took time to fully reset, there's a higher chance they'll actually do anything (unless you're perfectly fine with wasting time..)
_ though this can also cause issues, as the game doesn't seem to like you quickly traversing between two classrooms that both have Chalkles in them. I've had this make Chalkles fail to spawn in either classroom before until I left the rooms entirely, so I imagine it'd introduce other oddities if an NPC tried to exist in two places at once

there's something else about how easy it is to avoid Chalkles' punishment, as well- the door forcibly closes* when they laugh, which I believe was done that way to let the player use Chalkles to distract Baldi... but honestly, I don't really use this. Baldi could possibly already be coming that way thanks to the noise of the door, and standing still where Baldi is heading isn't my ideal plan
_ a lot of (if not all) NPCs are designed to be a double-edged sword of sorts, where they could help you, but could also lead to your demise. with some NPCs it isn't obvious how they could help (e.g Bully blocks sightlines), but with Chalkles it just doesn't feel worth it most the time. so not only is their punishment weak, but the only potential way they could benefit the player isn't the greatest either
*edit: went back in-game to test my memory. if you don't hold the door open, it locks immediately upon Chalkles spawning. if you're holding the door open, the locking sound plays but the door itself doesn't close until a bit later. perhaps this was a glitch all along? :p

I suppose if Chalkles both spawned slightly faster but also didn't instantly reset, that'd both increase their threat level as well as make them the tiniest bit more viable as a distraction. though this wouldn't really make them much more interesting* imo, just more present


I know this thread is mostly about Chalkles, but regarding your idea for Mrs.Pomp: it'd be weird for her to drag you through the whole school imo? she's trying to force you to her class, even comes back for you if you manage to get away before reaching the room. to me, her main issue is how she interacts with the YTP system. currently the only way to lose points is by spending them, but attending her class rewards you with 100YTPS per visit. yes you don't get points for missing her class, but if you attend her class once or twice it wouldn't really matter all that much at this point in time
_ perhaps she could have some max amount you get from her that's deducted from if you miss classes (sorta similar to how Playtime's minigame works, but across the entire life instead of per encounter). that way you can still get a lot of points from her but missing class affects things a bit more

*edit: I originally used 'better' here, but switched it because that wasn't quite what I meant. more interesting also isn't quite what I mean, as Chalkles isn't necessarily boring imo, either. yes they're mechanically simple, but that's perfectly fine! a complex NPC camping classrooms would be annoying, anyways :p

[abdolarn]

Originally posted by |i.c.c.n|:

Chalkles in BBCR is interesting. still not much of a threat, but in hard mode they could actually be a problem. thanks to the 3 questions per math machine and the higher tickrate overall, I had to consider them more often to avoid getting locked in on the small map.

I believe I've mentioned in a prior discussion about Chalkles that an idea I'd have for making them more of a threat is to simply not make the reset instant. if Chalkles took time to fully reset, there's a higher chance they'll actually do anything (unless you're perfectly fine with wasting time..)
_ though this can also cause issues, as the game doesn't seem to like you quickly traversing between two classrooms that both have Chalkles in them. I've had this make Chalkles fail to spawn in either classroom before until I left the rooms entirely, so I imagine it'd introduce other oddities if an NPC tried to exist in two places at once

there's something else about how easy it is to avoid Chalkles' punishment, as well- the door forcibly closes* when they laugh, which I believe was done that way to let the player use Chalkles to distract Baldi... but honestly, I don't really use this. Baldi could possibly already be coming that way thanks to the noise of the door, and standing still where Baldi is heading isn't my ideal plan
_ a lot of (if not all) NPCs are designed to be a double-edged sword of sorts, where they could help you, but could also lead to your demise. with some NPCs it isn't obvious how they could help (e.g Bully blocks sightlines), but with Chalkles it just doesn't feel worth it most the time. so not only is their punishment weak, but the only potential way they could benefit the player isn't the greatest either
*edit: went back in-game to test my memory. if you don't hold the door open, it locks immediately upon Chalkles spawning. if you're holding the door open, the locking sound plays but the door itself doesn't close until a bit later. perhaps this was a glitch all along? :p

I suppose if Chalkles both spawned slightly faster but also didn't instantly reset, that'd both increase their threat level as well as make them the tiniest bit more viable as a distraction. though this wouldn't really make them much more interesting* imo, just more present


I know this thread is mostly about Chalkles, but regarding your idea for Mrs.Pomp: it'd be weird for her to drag you through the whole school imo? she's trying to force you to her class, even comes back for you if you manage to get away before reaching the room. to me, her main issue is how she interacts with the YTP system. currently the only way to lose points is by spending them, but attending her class rewards you with 100YTPS per visit. yes you don't get points for missing her class, but if you attend her class once or twice it wouldn't really matter all that much at this point in time
_ perhaps she could have some max amount you get from her that's deducted from if you miss classes (sorta similar to how Playtime's minigame works, but across the entire life instead of per encounter). that way you can still get a lot of points from her but missing class affects things a bit more

*edit: I originally used 'better' here, but switched it because that wasn't quite what I meant. more interesting also isn't quite what I mean, as Chalkles isn't necessarily boring imo, either. yes they're mechanically simple, but that's perfectly fine! a complex NPC camping classrooms would be annoying, anyways :p

Hello. not much to say, i just wanted to clear up a few stuff.
Imo i think Chalkles would need a slightly longer punishment time to work. Maybe a few more seconds, like 18-20? That said, i think doing a few changes than just changing a few numbers to him is probably the better choice.
One concept i never talked about is that Chalkles could start to slightly slow down the player if they linger too long. This way, it gives the player the hint that they gotta leave, and if they don't, Chalkles activates.

Regarding Mrs Pomp: i kind of poorly worded what i was talking about. What i meant with "Mrs Pomp dragging the player throughout the building" is NOT to drag the player throughout the whole school, but to instead, find the longest path possible to her class, while still remaining logical. So to elaborate, she'll avoid shortcuts to her class, and try to find the longest path to her class. If you're close to her class though, Mrs Pomp will just drag you to her class through the fastest path.
Also, regarding the YTPs she gives, why not just give the player 100 YTPs the first time, but reduce to an amount like 25 any time after?
If you do end up having YTP penalties in the future, i think missing Mrs Pomp's class should deduct from the player 100 YTP points during her anger. Mrs Pomp completely calms down when she's done with her anger, as you never missed her class. So it wouldn't really make sense for her to deduct from you how many YTPs you gain from her since she completely calms down from her anger.

Finally, regarding Chalkles not locking any doors until he starts laughing: I don't think that thing ever actually happened to me. if you keep a door open, it'll stay that way until it slams shut. even if it's locked. and you won't be able to open it. So uh, you prooobably just kept a door open, before Chalkles activated. Chalkles always locks doors before he starts laughing.

[|i.c.c.n|]

Originally posted by abdolarn:

Hello. not much to say, i just wanted to clear up a few stuff.
Imo i think Chalkles would need a slightly longer punishment time to work. Maybe a few more seconds, like 18-20? That said, i think doing a few changes than just changing a few numbers to him is probably the better choice.
One concept i never talked about is that Chalkles could start to slightly slow down the player if they linger too long. This way, it gives the player the hint that they gotta leave, and if they don't, Chalkles activates.

Chalkles slowing down the player would get in the way, as if you tried to leave too late, the slowdown could prevent you from leaving before the door locks. while the observant wouldn't commonly encounter this, this forces you to waste more time if you couldn't do what you needed quickly enough

Chalkles taking longer to unlock the door will just make gameplay slower. while it may give Baldi more opportunity to get to you if he was further away when Chalkles spawned, if he was close-by it just means the player is forced to wait after Baldi's done investigating- giving Baldi more time to wander away and be less of a threat. ideally you'd want to wait for Baldi to wander off regardless, but at least with the current punishment time it'd be moreso on your own terms

Originally posted by abdolarn:

Regarding Mrs Pomp: i kind of poorly worded what i was talking about. What i meant with "Mrs Pomp dragging the player throughout the building" is NOT to drag the player throughout the whole school, but to instead, find the longest path possible to her class, while still remaining logical. So to elaborate, she'll avoid shortcuts to her class, and try to find the longest path to her class. If you're close to her class though, Mrs Pomp will just drag you to her class through the fastest path.
Also, regarding the YTPs she gives, why not just give the player 100 YTPs the first time, but reduce to an amount like 25 any time after?
If you do end up having YTP penalties in the future, i think missing Mrs Pomp's class should deduct from the player 100 YTP points during her anger. Mrs Pomp completely calms down when she's done with her anger, as you never missed her class. So it wouldn't really make sense for her to deduct from you how many YTPs you gain from her since she completely calms down from her anger.

I was approaching the YTP aspect from a sort of GPA standpoint- the better you do, the better score you have. if you perform poorly, points are deducted. this makes sense to me for a teacher to deduct points, even if in Mrs. Pomp's case it's moreso based off attendance than subject performance. related: why I'm against her giving points per visit is that even though there's quite a cooldown between classes, that's still a lot of points to get and it's easy to farm them from her. reducing the amount of points you get per visit may help some thanks to the long cooldown, but since her interaction is so easy that it often feels like free points

thank you for clarifying how Mrs. Pomp would pathfind- her avoiding shortcuts would definitely make missing class more punishing and would be more reason to attend

Originally posted by abdolarn:

Finally, regarding Chalkles not locking any doors until he starts laughing: I don't think that thing ever actually happened to me. if you keep a door open, it'll stay that way until it slams shut. even if it's locked. and you won't be able to open it. So uh, you prooobably just kept a door open, before Chalkles activated. Chalkles always locks doors before he starts laughing.

I'm aware- I made an edit in my original post after I went back in-game to test. I remembered correctly about being able to leave after Chalkles spawned but before they laughed, but I didn't remember that it normally locks instantly (and didn't realize that even when holding it open it still locked instantly, just didn't shut immediately. I discovered this before the sound effects were implemented so had no way to know for sure)

either way, Chalkles can't really be used to benefit the player. one of the few NPCs without any real advantage to them. Playtime may stop the player for some time as well but at least she gives YTPs for instance, but Chalkles is just in the way... perhaps that's another reason I'd prefer the spawning to be faster than the punishment time being longer

[Harma22]

I feel like decerasing chalkes's spawn time to like 10-7 seconds and making him fade out instead of dissapearing instantly, and making him persist between rooms (if you go to another classroom that has chalkles in it before he finishes fading out, he will spawn quicker due to his spawn timer not being set to 0) would be a good buff for him.

As for Mrs. Pomp, I think she's fine, she was just added too early, making it too easy to get to her classrooms. I feel like she will become a menace to society in later levels if she keeps her 2 minute timer across the whole game.

[abdolarn]

Hello! this reply is somewhat late,but i figured i'd reply to a few stuff.

Originally posted by Mc Mcarthy Jones:

..........I personally don’t think Chalkles is really meant to be a character that you get caught by regularly. I instead think they’re more of a prevention to the “sit in a room for five minutes until Baldi goes somewhere you want” strategy. When Chalkles catches you, (or if you make a noise well entering the room.) Baldi will tend to stay around that room, and not path-find too far aways.

While i think you have a good point, and i definitely think the same way, if Chalkles was made as a "prevention" character, why not just make a mechanic to prevent the player from lingering too long in a room? Chalkles doesn't always spawn in a classroom, he only does in ones with empty chalkboards, not to mention, he isn't always going to be in a game of Hide-and-seek, since other characters might spawn. The only characters that are guaranteed to spawn in a game of hide-and-seek are Baldi and Principal of the thing.

Originally posted by Mc Mcarthy Jones:

..........As for Mrs. Pomp, I don’t really agree with you on her punishment being changed. Remember that characters are supposed to have a way of helping you as well as harming you, and I think Mrs. Pomps punishment is supposed to be a more strategic take on that idea.

..........What I mean is, unlike 1st Prize appearing at a good time, or Playtime just giving you YTPs because screw interesting game design. In order to take advantage of Mrs. Pomp dragging you, you have to be really careful and plan ahead. You have to make sure Baldi isn’t in the way, you have to avoid entering classrooms before you want to be dragged, etc. etc. And if you’re careless Mrs. Pomp could be very problematic, or even just kill you!

..........Of course, if you don’t want to deal with how to take advantage of Mrs. Pomps dragging speed, you can always just go to her classroom and ALSO get YTPs! (Seriously, this is such a lame way of making characters “helpful.”) So I do agree that some adjustments for Mrs. Pomp are needed, but I don't agree with extreme things like her dragging you everywhere and tossing your items about.

I don't really think Mrs Pomp was designed to be utilised by the player. She's a character which you simply must obey. If you miss Mrs Pomp's class, at least for me, i think you should come back thinking to never miss her class again. You see my point? She's a character that's intimidating and creepy once angered. The reason i wanted her punishment to be changed, is to give the player more reason to arrive to her class.
I definitely see your point, though. I think if done right, Mrs Pomp could be a character that you wouldn't want to miss her class, but has a punishment that can be utilised if you want to get somewhere quickly. Currently though, she's lacking of those factors. i feel like after Mrs Pomp was reworked (V0.3.4) she became much more tame. Not only could you after 0.3.4 escape Mrs Pomp's grasp if you had any character or item to aid you, but you also could just move away from her grasp if you had time. Not to mention, Mrs Pomp took a looong time to notice you escaped her, until she comes back to you, so that made her a good character to constantly troll, rather than an unnerving character, and you'd be better ignoring her class rather than going to it. I think if she was reworked again to her pre-0.3.4 version, (while still retaining some of her rework's factors) and got a small buff or 2, she'd be good.

Originally posted by Mc Mcarthy Jones:

..........I also disagree with the philosophy that being able to use items to avoid characters makes them weaker, because that's kinda the point? Like items are a tool for the player, and having to expand good items like a Dangerous Teleporter on someone like Chalkles is still a mistake on your part. Also items like the Principal Keys literally exist for this purpose, if you’re hauling around one of those you have to keep in mind that that’s one less item slot to be reserved for more active strategies.

That wasn't my point. I think that giving Chalkles counters does give items more use, but i think that giving such an uncommon to encounter character counters just makes it much less common for people to actually encounter Chalkles properly. You'd just throw some keys into Chalkles and get out of the room, without really giving Chalkles a chance to shine in the spotlight. If Chalkles was made more common to encounter, this not only would fix this problem, but also make items more useful, since then, you'd have more opportunities to use items like Principal Keys on Chalkles, making there more reason to take them.