The Hereafter

[Demonarke]

So was father Mark and Cassius right about the hereafter ? I feel like in both cases whether you reach the peak of the tree or the foot you just cease to exist, you either become a part of the elder (your essence basically broken down to be a part of him) or you just go to the bottom and eventually cease to exist.
Also how is the grandfather able to speak to it's offsprings ? It seems like in both cases after true death your identity is not kept so it's weird he would be able to interact with them.

[Jackdaw Mask]

I mean try to do Shadow of the Will event for extra afterlife lore and then we can speculate further :D

[Demonarke]

I need to follow Ulrich for that right ?
Will doing so help me understand the lore of the afterlife ?
Because I've already been spoiled that you become the shadow that you see when you are a child or something

[Jackdaw Mask]

Yeah, apparently if you do so to the end, you die, go to twins and can apparently with high theology reject both of their judgment.

Though I haven't seen it myself yet so I dunno how much of it is cryptic and how much it reveals, but implications are there that Ulrich's heresy isn't completely wrong about how gods work :D

[Das Boot]

I think you still exist in some form if you reach the peak of the pillar. When you pick that option the game refers to it as "eternal bliss", and you're described as abiding in the Elder's will. Apart from that, Gregor Brante still retains a conscious personality even years after he died. Moreover, in the duel between Gaius Tempest and Dorius Otton they both get aided by both their ancestors.

In any case, Father Mark's gripe with the afterlife was more due to the lack of will. Once you're there you can't make any more decisions.

[Demonarke]

Originally posted by Jackdaw Mask:

Yeah, apparently if you do so to the end, you die, go to twins and can apparently with high theology reject both of their judgment.

Though I haven't seen it myself yet so I dunno how much of it is cryptic and how much it reveals, but implications are there that Ulrich's heresy isn't completely wrong about how gods work :D

I'll have to do it but I doubt it will answer my question about the grandfather being able to speak to us cause the grandfather was just a normal dude who followed his lot, so he should either be part of the elder or be in oblivion (kinda seems like the same thing to me to be honest) and in each case he shouldn't be able to speak to us.
Or it's the twin impersonating the grandfather or something I dunno

[Demonarke]

Originally posted by Das Boot:

I think you still exist in some form if you reach the peak of the pillar. When you pick that option the game refers to it as "eternal bliss", and you're described as abiding in the Elder's will.

In any case, Father Mark's gripe with the afterlife was more due to the lack of will. Once you're there you can't make any more decisions.

Well they say that if you are stuck at the foot of the pillar you will endure eternal suffering, but oblivion is like a cessation of existence you don't suffer you just don't exist.
And the top of the tree is described as eternal bliss yet the elder "consumes" your soul and the game says there is no "you" anymore.
So to me in both cases in seems like you stop to exist, best case scenario if you reach the top of the tree you become a part of the elder and exist inside him or something (whatever that means) in any case it seems to be the twins are not what they seem like and if there is no "you" anymore I fail to understand how ancestors are able to speak to their offsprings

[Das Boot]

Originally posted by Demonarke:

So to me in both cases in seems like you stop to exist, best case scenario if you reach the top of the tree you become a part of the elder and exist inside him or something (whatever that means) in any case it seems to be the twins are not what they seem like

Well, it's stated that you abide in his Will, in present tense, and that word means to live or dwell. As for "you" being no more, that could just refer to losing his will due to there being no more decisions for you to make. Not to mention the ancestral ghosts that appear in the story.

Father Mark did say that a person was his will, not that a person was his consciousness. In fact, if you help him escape execution via a lesser death Father Mark admits to being terrified of what that would do to his will - even though, being a lesser death, he'd still get to be alive afterwards.

[klozen]

Well, when Octavia joins the hivemind (on noble path) you can look how she is doing inside and she dreaming of her own perfect world for her for all eternity (that sound like an eternal bliss to me). She has no will but she still exists inside. So being part of the Twins is probably same.

[Das Boot]

Originally posted by klozen:

Well, when Octavia joins the hivemind (on noble path) you can look how she is doing inside and she dreaming of her own perfect world for her for all eternity (that sound like an eternal bliss to me). She has no will but she still exists inside. So being part of the Twins is probably same.

That's what I'm thinking.

[Feral Beagle]

Originally posted by Das Boot:

Apart from that, Gregor Brante still retains a conscious personality even years after he died. Moreover, in the duel between Gaius Tempest and Dorius Otton they both get aided by both their ancestors.

I'm wondering if the Blood Tide ritual might have something to do with maintaining an earthly tether. I don't have any direct evidence, but the ritual itself seems to tie entire lineages together spiritually. Even though the ritual could just be symbolic, it's possible that it might be a form of blood magic, from which departed ancestors derive energy to manifest.

[Demonarke]

Originally posted by Feral Beagle:

Originally posted by Das Boot:

Apart from that, Gregor Brante still retains a conscious personality even years after he died. Moreover, in the duel between Gaius Tempest and Dorius Otton they both get aided by both their ancestors.

I'm wondering if the Blood Tide ritual might have something to do with maintaining an earthly tether. I don't have any direct evidence, but the ritual itself seems to tie entire lineages together spiritually. Even though the ritual could just be symbolic, it's possible that it might be a form of blood magic, from which departed ancestors derive energy to manifest.

Yeah I think the same thing, it seems like the blood ritual has something to do with ancestors maintainting a connexion to earth but then how does that change what happens in the hereafter ? Is Gregor really the one speaking to us ? Is Gregor judgment postponed until he gets what he wants ? Do you need to be accepted at the peak of the tree to be able to communicate ? Cause the foot means oblivion, so many questions..

[Skiminok]

Originally posted by Demonarke:

Originally posted by Feral Beagle:

I'm wondering if the Blood Tide ritual might have something to do with maintaining an earthly tether. I don't have any direct evidence, but the ritual itself seems to tie entire lineages together spiritually. Even though the ritual could just be symbolic, it's possible that it might be a form of blood magic, from which departed ancestors derive energy to manifest.

Yeah I think the same thing, it seems like the blood ritual has something to do with ancestors maintainting a connexion to earth but then how does that change what happens in the hereafter ? Is Gregor really the one speaking to us ? Is Gregor judgment postponed until he gets what he wants ? Do you need to be accepted at the peak of the tree to be able to communicate ? Cause the foot means oblivion, so many questions..

If you manage to get Otton under the Court of Honor, this topic opens up a little bit more. Main hero hears only Gregor because he was the first one who died as noble. During the duel between Gaius and Otton it is said, that it wasn't duel of two warriors, but full-scale battle between hundreds of souls of theirs ancestors. And Gaius was so confident and calm challenging Otton (the best duelist in the Empire) because he new, that his bloodline was chosen by the Divine Twins, and thats why he will surely win (and he won).
So, my guess is that having a connection with your dead relatives is another privilege of nobles in this world.

[Feral Beagle]

Originally posted by Skiminok:

If you manage to get Otton under the Court of Honor, this topic opens up a little bit more. Main hero hears only Gregor because he was the first one who died as noble. During the duel between Gaius and Otton it is said, that it wasn't duel of two warriors, but full-scale battle between hundreds of souls of theirs ancestors. And Gaius was so confident and calm challenging Otton (the best duelist in the Empire) because he new, that his bloodline was chosen by the Divine Twins, and thats why he will surely win (and he won).
So, my guess is that having a connection with your dead relatives is another privilege of nobles in this world.

I came to a similar conclusion after getting these events. What I'm struggling to understand is in what capacity Gregor continues to exist after death. A lot of the information surrounding the afterlife is incredibly vague on whether or not you maintain a semblance of self after acceptance/rejection by the Twins. It's pretty fascinating stuff.

If the Blood Tide is some blood magic ritual for post-mortem existence, it would make sense why Stephen might be bothered by his commoner brothers being allowed access. If it's a purely noble privilege, then it could be dangerous if a lowborn person figured out how it worked.

[klozen]

Also, if you duel Otton and you are noble of the sword (also Gregor +2). He will come to help you and tell you Otton Bloodtide was corrupted and dry up and yours is young and strong. He will also tell you how he is proud of you and that he believe in you (it's one of my favourite scenes in the game).

[Demonarke]

Originally posted by Feral Beagle:

Originally posted by Skiminok:

If you manage to get Otton under the Court of Honor, this topic opens up a little bit more. Main hero hears only Gregor because he was the first one who died as noble. During the duel between Gaius and Otton it is said, that it wasn't duel of two warriors, but full-scale battle between hundreds of souls of theirs ancestors. And Gaius was so confident and calm challenging Otton (the best duelist in the Empire) because he new, that his bloodline was chosen by the Divine Twins, and thats why he will surely win (and he won).
So, my guess is that having a connection with your dead relatives is another privilege of nobles in this world.

I came to a similar conclusion after getting these events. What I'm struggling to understand is in what capacity Gregor continues to exist after death. A lot of the information surrounding the afterlife is incredibly vague on whether or not you maintain a semblance of self after acceptance/rejection by the Twins. It's pretty fascinating stuff.

If the Blood Tide is some blood magic ritual for post-mortem existence, it would make sense why Stephen might be bothered by his commoner brothers being allowed access. If it's a purely noble privilege, then it could be dangerous if a lowborn person figured out how it worked.

So my theory is that when you die you can either get erased from existence (foot of the tree) or you get inside the elder (peak of the tree) which is probably eternal bliss since it is described everytime the elder get close to you you feel really good so I can only imagine what being a part of him must feel like.
And then if you are a noble and part of the blood tide a part of your soul stays connected to the earth, which is also why Gregor, Stephen and Robert speaks of immortality when talking about the blood tide, I thought it was symbolic but it might actually be literal.
So basically if you are part of the blood tide some part of your soul is either gone (oblivion) or experiencing bliss while another part of your soul is down on earth observing your family.
To me that's how the hereafter could work but hey it's just a theory.