Skill System complaints

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I've seen many people complain about the skill system, stating that it's either bad or worse than PD2, but I haven't actually seen anyone give a reason.
PD2 skills are largely "do more damage with x weapon", or other such things, while PD3 skills got synergies up to 11. Like instant ammo pickup into the mag on a sniper kill, constant edge uptime in several different ways and all the benefits that come with that.
So where is this sentiment coming from? Just not liking change?

[TRP]

I'm interested in hearing this too. I like both systems, but Payday 3 has edged out PD2 for me for now. I like that I have to actually think about how to optimize my skills, instead of just getting the straight buffs and kinda being mindless about it. I'm super glad they got rid of the perk decks though. Those created so many balance issues and made the game a lot less fun for me.

[naii.neocities.org]

The problem with the skill system is that it's incredibly boring. Just about the most interesting skill combo is Ammo Funnel + Replenish but that doesn't compare to something like Berserker Stacked with Overkill in pd2.

Using early pd2 as a reference, the skill system was meant to lock those crazy skills around high point investment. That combo I mentioned wouldn't be possible until you spent a lot of points in the Enforcer tree. This was all of course before the skill overhaul.

It really contributed to the really high highs of unlocking cool skills in early pd2, you'd grind for something like inspire and then get a really cool gamechanging ability.

In pd3, every skill is on equal footing, so there's zero potential for anything like that. The game is balanced well around its skill system, but it's boring on a fundamental level.

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Originally posted by naii_:

The problem with the skill system is that it's incredibly boring. Just about the most interesting skill combo is Ammo Funnel + Replenish but that doesn't compare to something like Berserker Stacked with Overkill in pd2.

Using early pd2 as a reference, the skill system was meant to lock those crazy skills around high point investment. That combo I mentioned wouldn't be possible until you spent a lot of points in the Enforcer tree. This was all of course before the skill overhaul.

It really contributed to the really high highs of unlocking cool skills in early pd2, you'd grind for something like inspire and then get a really cool gamechanging ability.

In pd3, every skill is on equal footing, so there's zero potential for anything like that. The game is balanced well around its skill system, but it's boring on a fundamental level.

Honestly I'd say the skills have vastly different usefulness. My go-to loud build uses gunslinger to get a constant edge up, and a skill that gives me a chance to get throwables on ammo boxes when I have edge. That then leads me to the demolitionist tree, so those two systems are directly connected. It restricts me by not letting me aim, but it gives me tons of benefits, the game breaking doesn't come from a singular skill designed for it, but a big synergy, which is way more rewarding than current PD2, where there are no synergies and all the cool things you can skill are specifically designed like that.

[Snowman517]

They definitely got away from the skill system and focused more on the actual strategy of the game. The only thing I dislike in particular is that you have to get every previous skill to unlock the one you want.

[Noop]

You are joking, right? The skill system is the most boring, uninspired, unintuitive ♥♥♥♥ you can come up with. Literally.

There isnt even any build diversity cuz people will literally take the same abilities as the balance is complete ass. There is nothing creative, synergies suck and the person who made it clearly never played a RPG.

But that isnt even all of it. No somebody thought it's a good idea to lock skills behind skill points which nobody realy knows how you get them aside from leveling, then you need to research every skill aswell, and then you need to equip that skill to level up the others in that "tree".

Seriously this is a convoluted ♥♥♥♥ mechanic nobody thought through. PD2 had so many creative things to tackle surviveability and builds and this game has literally none of it made everything worse and doesnt explain ♥♥♥♥ either.

[SaLaĐiN]

ANother clown award farming. Jesus Christ, imagine awards farming.

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I saw the Kknowley skill video and he described a build that uses ammo funnel + replenish on a sniper rifle, which is something so cool you'd never see it in PD2

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Originally posted by Noop:

You are joking, right? The skill system is the most boring, uninspired, unintuitive ♥♥♥♥ you can come up with. Literally.

There isnt even any build diversity cuz people will literally take the same abilities as the balance is complete ass. There is nothing creative, synergies suck and the person who made it clearly never played a RPG.

But that isnt even all of it. No somebody thought it's a good idea to lock skills behind skill points which nobody realy knows how you get them aside from leveling, then you need to research every skill aswell, and then you need to equip that skill to level up the others in that "tree".

Seriously this is a convoluted ♥♥♥♥ mechanic nobody thought through. PD2 had so many creative things to tackle surviveability and builds and this game has literally none of it made everything worse and doesnt explain ♥♥♥♥ either.

So like how Payday 2 already worked? Skill points from levelling, perk decks need to "researched", they combined the sytems.
not to mention that PD2 had a very very robust meta in every stage of the game

[SaLaĐiN]

Yes, Payday 2 worked exactly like that that if you beat 10 heists, you would get no xp, no level, no skills, nothing. Exactly.

[Noop]

Ah I see, you didnt actually look for answers you are just a fanboy who has no clue about game design.

I mean I explained it, if you dont understand that not having any actual choices that feel impactfull is ♥♥♥♥ design then nobody can help you.

[SaLaĐiN]

Payday 2 also randomly distributed points among skills too, oh wait, no.

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Originally posted by Noop:

Ah I see, you didnt actually look for answers you are just a fanboy who has no clue about game design.

I mean I explained it, if you dont understand that not having any actual choices that feel impactfull is ♥♥♥♥ design then nobody can help you.

You literally just said "Skill system boring, because uh I said so, I don't need to give reasons".
Build diversity is there, just cause you can't think of more synergies than ammo funnel + replenish, doesn't mean no one else can

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Originally posted by Stealth God:

Yes, Payday 2 worked exactly like that that if you beat 10 heists, you would get no xp, no level, no skills, nothing. Exactly.

Skills level by using them, pretty sure perk decks worked like that once upon a time, before they made it a currency.
Beating heists on once on a difficulty gives you a challenge reward, beating them 15 times gives a challenge reward, doing the heists differently gives challenge rewards, most things you do during heists give challenge rewards, but if you do the same thing over and over again like how PD2 grinding worked, you get only money after a while

[Greb]

120 points vs 22 points I think? And four skill trees with distinct themes, with like 15 skills in them, in which each skill could be aced to further increase their benefit. There was a mixture of passive skills, active skills and unlocker skills, and players were free to build in whatever direction they wanted.

Note: Payday 2 sucked major ballsack when it release in regards to skills, because we had skills that simply reduced the cost of applying weapon mods, buying skills, customising masks, and they also cost a lot of money to buy each skill and upgrade them, not to mention you only had ONE build so you couldn't easily swap between different builds, not without losing a bucket of cash each time.

However you had way more variety in the approach. Unlocking skills felt great because you increased your points by levelling up and then you could slam points into a skill and you would reach breakpoints to unlock the next row, with (some of) the best skills being locked at the back of the row, so you had to really invest in your build. Spreading points around too much left you thin but might give you some versatility, whereas focusing points on a specific tree had you standing tall. It was pretty cool.

The themes were also neat. Mastermind for controlling civilians, managing cops, healing your crew and giving them bonuses, and was also themed around revolvers and pistols. Enforcers for having lots of ammo, giving the crew ammo, being strong and tanky, operating heavy equipment and moving bags better. Their weapon boosts were for shotguns and assault rifles. Technician for using swanky gadgets, improving drills, gaining access to C4 and mines, using sentry guns, improving crew armour, stuff like that. Their weapon boosts were for single shot weapons and snipers. Ghost for all of the stealthy stuff, like unlocking the ability to body bag, answering more pagers than anyone else, decreasing enemy noise when dying, moving around faster and with more guile, etc. They got weapon skills for suppressed weapons and SMGs. Stuff like that.

Skills changed over time such as pagers turning into a default 4 for every heist (which did MUCH to reduce confusion lol) and became more streamlined as a result, but they never lost the investment. Towards the end of Payday 2's lifespan though they began screwing with it big time, to the point where you could end up going "mid" in pretty much every tree, possibly even "tall" in one or two, which really kinda made everyone overpowered and capable of hitting key markers...I hated that.

So that's one reason why I hate this new system. Unlocking the skills is done in like the first 20 levels and then you're just picking and choosing the choice skills from a big list without any rhyme or reason, you literally just take the best things and avoid any of the worst things, there's literally no investment or anything, you're only held back by your level which grants more skill points to spend, which in turn just grants you more luxury instead of granting you the ability to push deeper into one or more skill trees.

Instead you just have a bunch of skills loosely named after a "role" or whatever, some of the old ones still exist like the original "Enforcer" has now been cut apart into "Enforcer" and "Tank" and "Ammo" or whatever, and again you just drop a single point to activate the tree and then just grab whatever you want from within it. I'm just not a fan of how casual / easy it is, I liked coming up with a bunch of different builds in Payday 2 and that seems quite lacking now.

I also don't like the "Grit / Edge / Rush" system where you're juggling a bunch of power ups in order to use your skills - I was happier with more individual skills all working in tandem and not being leashed to having a power up running. I.E skills which boosted your reload speed for a few seconds after you got a headshot, or that temporarily boosted your dodge when you took a hit, or that boosted your running speed when your armour broke temporarily. Things like that.

It's like we've been given a couple of customisable perk decks instead of an actual skill system. I know it's just an opinion and not fact, but it is mine. I'm just not a fan.

While Payday 2 suffered from it as well, I dislike skills which magically imbue your guns with super effects. For example, Ammo Funnel or the Armour Penetration skill. Why does being skilled with a gun suddenly allow ammo to fly into my magazine, or for my bullets to suddenly gain bonus penetration power?

I thought this game was going to be more realistic or focus more on realism and grounded gameplay, lol. They should have ammo mods that change your penetration power, not a skill, and ammo funnel shouldn't even be a thing - give me a skill that just gives me an always-active passive increase to reload speed instead...this isn't Borderlands. Right?

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Originally posted by Greb:

120 points vs 22 points I think? And four skill trees with distinct themes, with like 15 skills in them, in which each skill could be aced to further increase their benefit. There was a mixture of passive skills, active skills and unlocker skills, and players were free to build in whatever direction they wanted. ...

Honestly I like the synergies more than the very specific skills Payday 2 had.
One thing I love is that no skill is locked to a weapon type, that massively improves variety and makes it so you don't need to invest a dozen points into a category just to use it properly. And obviously you won't have to use the same gun category in both slots.
The really standout skills are now achievable through synergies, say the PD2 sniper skill that refills your ammo on headshots, you can build that ammo funnel + replenish. Some cool skills in PD2 were locked behind completely useless skills, like double deployables when you're not using sentries. It's obviously more free-form, which I'd say is a good thing, because in PD3 the power isn't in the skills, but the synergies between skills. And I am very glad they didn't think "Is this scientifically possible" with every skill, gameplay first always imo.
I think the realism thing was about all the wacky magic stuff in the story tbh.
Edge/Grit/Rush is a thing that not everyone likes, yeah, it certainly adds complexity, but also some frustration. You need an activator skill for things, to get your buffs going, it does reward you for playing aggressively most of the time, but it's a hit or miss really. Keeping up a rush or edge is easy enough, but Grit is difficult.
Difficulty is much improved, seen a bunch of people complain about "bullet sponges" tho, I don't think those people played PD2, like ever