SAW assessment after update. Disappointing.

[Tr00puRR]

I will start by saying I play bastion almost exclusively, as it had all the right tools to get the job done. The most important tool was my SAW, body armor being a close second. I almost always play Veteran. And I very frequently had 3rd place for kills in my matches, with Grenade launcher Medics being my closest rivals. I am a great Bastion, and a SAW professional.

For this post I will differentiate between the former and latter SAW versions as SAW.M1 (before update) and NEW.SAW (Updated stats).

The SAW.M1 was a hard kicking, deadly, and reasonably controllable monster. It excelled where it was meant to (In siege, or crouched immobile) It was more challenging to learn to use it standing and moving slowly, or while defending your rear while retreating and this absolutely could be done. But for the weapon's drawbacks the power behind the rounds spent more than made up for it. I killed a LOT of bugs while also getting and carrying ore, rescuing fallen troopers and only defending the base at the end. I was mobile and deadly with it. If you played matches with me, you know I work hard hunting plasma and clearing infestations. I ONLY took armor perks and learned to use my limited ammo to best effect (300 total, 150/150)

The NEW.SAW however has been balanced to help less skilled individuals use it, though its personality has been stripped down. It is easier to control, even when walking and firing, and the ammo concerns have been severely reduced. The damage however was the cost of this, and in my opinion the weapon no longer performs its job well enough to justify its use.

I cannot state the stats for the SAW.M1 accurately as I never bothered to really count the details, it just worked. But with a full 150 rounds I could kill about 6 Warriors. OR 1 tiger AFTER reload. Or just one Plasma Grenadier using nearly all 300 and be almost empty.

The NEW.SAW with its 200 round magazine I can kill 4 Warriors. 45-50 rounds per warrior at point blank range. That is a MAJOR decrease in ability. The 'still a buff' the devs gave it by making it more accurate and stable is not what the weapon needed. It WOULD be nice but most targets are nearly chewing on you, so range is NOT CRITICAL.

The following are numbers to help illustrate my point. Fire time at full auto before empty mag, and expected WARRIOR kills per mag, plus reload factored in, for a "Combat kill-time quotient" which we will call CKT.
Morita carbine ..... 5 sec empty... 1 kills.. 3 sec reload........ CKT-8...... 55-60 shot to kill
Morita MK1 Rifle.. 7 sec empty... 1 kills.. 3 sec reload........ CKT-10.... 50-55 shot to kill
NEW.SAW.............. 22 sec empty. 4 kills. 6 sec reload... CKT-7........... 40-45 shot to kill
SAW.M1.................. 16 sec empty. 6 kills... 6 sec reload... CKT 3.66.... 25 shot to kill
All weapons tested at point blank range vs single warriors.
(Weapons testing did not consider the remaining few rounds per magazine as counting towards CKT as softening up next target after reload.)

For automatic weapons, the NEW.SAW is still able to kill WARRIORS more efficiently per second spent before a new magazine is fully loaded. BUT with its damage decreased even with 50 extra rounds it is almost half as efficient as before. So the gun is 'Balanced" compared to other automatics, but is still less able to engage at range, and you will miss more shots beyond a small amount of distance. So while you'll be contributing to killing, stumbling and finishing off the closest WARRIORS, if you are swarmed (and what bastion isn't) by 5 WARRIORS you'll have 28 seconds before you can fire your primary at WARRIOR #5. You will likely die.
-Hunters can leap onto objects to protect themselves.
-Operators can self revive after death.
-Bastions have heavy armor and heavy damage output. Or at least they did. Now we're stuck with basic rifles or a lighter-light machine-gun.

In conclusion the NEW.SAW does not do much to stand out, its role of brutal beast to be tamed and unleashed on bugs is now a less accurate very extended mag Morita.MK1.
I know these changes may not be permanent. And anyone who reads this, thank you for your time. Anyone who responds post either [NEW] or [OLD] as your first word so we can see what SAW you prefer. And I'm only really gonna take Bastion preferred players words seriously... Unless you fought with my SAW baby you don't really know her like I did.

[Roop]

İlk olarak Tr00puRR tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak Roop tarafından gönderildi:

Now does exactly what it was designed to do.

Technically the weapon with its increased stability is being used as an assault rifle now, not as a redeployable man portable heavier weapons platform. Which was what it was designed to do. That was why bastions could lock down and got a stability bonus, it reflects the need for defensive positioning and heavier sustained firepower on the frontline and chokepoints.
If what you MEAN is how it kills, it did that before the update, and does it less effectively after the update. But it is not acting like a 'light' machine gun, its acting like a Call Of Duty 'light' machine gun. Walking and firing with any hopes of hitting your target is not a quality common with light machine guns.

I don't disagree it's been dumbed down for, eh, dummies. It is, however, a better fit in the BAstion arsenal alongside the MK1.
I don't compare one games weapons with another because that's just dumb and there's enough of that in this forum already.

[Tr00puRR]

İlk olarak Roop tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak Tr00puRR tarafından gönderildi:

I don't compare one games weapons with another because that's just dumb and there's enough of that in this forum already.

I'm not comparing weapons from other games per-say, just stating the weapon is less like an LMG is, and more like LMGs depicted in video games where realism was not a concern.

[Fuzzy Wumpus]

The weapon is currently behaving like a SAW. It is not a LMG. I'm all for them adding an actual LMG which would likely have characteristics more like the old SAW, with higher damage and massive ammo belt in exchange for difficult handling, but the current SAW is in a good place.

[Tr00puRR]

The Morita Mk III "SAW" is an automatic rifle that fulfills the role of a light machine gun in service with the Mobile Infantry- according to the internet. An automatic rifle with the capability for sustained fire with a matching higher ammo capacity really is all an LMG is, it does not require a higher caliber ammunition than other rifles in use by whatever military, so what makes a weapon an LMG is pretty much {automatic fire} {capable of sustained fire} {man portable}. Not much to dispute there. But the SAW is an LMG, the Federation just loves its Moritas and bases most weapons on its platform.

As far as the New SAW being in a good place, it is certainly workable as all weapons are, but with half the killing power of its predecessor- the weapon I learned to love- it is too much like the other weapons available in my opinion. My match a few hours ago went bad, and we were human-shielding the ARC, and I gotta say dumping a ton of ammo into like 20 warriors and being unable to miss due to them being packed like sardines as they rip into the building really makes me wish for my older and more deadly model. We did succeed thanks to the Grenade launchers, nukes, and every explosive we could hit them with. The bullets were just not gonna save the day.

Given that the SAW is probably just a high capacity Morita using theoretically the same ammo, I can see why it being too similar is sensible. But I had a wilder beast that trained me to use it, and I learned to love it and its flaws, its hard to let that go. And if they fix the low enemy spawn rate HOOO BOY are you gonna wish the SAW could kill them like it used to.

[Fuzzy Wumpus]

Please stop exaggerating for effect. It does not have "half the killing power", and describing it this way does not help your argument. As for what the fluff says, it can say what it likes. The weapon is called a SAW, it acts like a SAW, and it fits the criteria of a SAW. As I said, I would love to see the addition of a proper machine gun in some form. Not sure how it could be done justice aside from the obvious need for the deployment ability to be active to have any kind of reasonable handling, but if an additional player could somehow be able to act as assistant gunner that could be a lot of fun. Again, not sure how it would work. There is, however, room for both these weapons in the game. The fact that there are currently about a half-dozen different weapons total in this game should maybe be a hint that more varied options are to come.

[Tr00puRR]

I'm not exaggerating for effect. Old SAW took exactly 24 rounds to kill a warrior, New SAW takes exactly 40. This is per bullet damage, granted that old Warriors had 150 health, and new warriors have 200. So while the damage is not HALVED, the amount of SAW shots needed to kill a Warrior is doubled. So I call that its 'killing power' when applied to effectiveness vs. 1 warrior. I can link a data sheet if you would like?

[Captain Dickärd]

[Old]

Old saw was a bit obtuse but was worth the learning curve. I don't like the weapon being re-balanced for unskilled players. I won't mind if a new LMG is added so we can have one that's easy to use and another that's unwieldy with a learning curve but with great benefit.

[Tr00puRR]

İlk olarak Captain Dickärd tarafından gönderildi:

[Old]

Old saw was a bit obtuse but was worth the learning curve. I don't like the weapon being re-balanced for unskilled players. I won't mind if a new LMG is added so we can have one that's easy to use and another that's unwieldy with a learning curve but with great benefit.

Dude your frikkin name is hilarious to me. And I agree, but then we enter the realm of maybe adding weapons not in the movies and books and whatnot. I respect them trying to keep it pretty true to the spirit of things, of course changes to make better gameplay are acceptable. If you've played Aliens Fireteam Elite, you'll know what it looks like when the world stops feeling like its based around its core material.

[Tr00puRR]

İlk olarak Fuzzy Wumpus tarafından gönderildi:

As I said, I would love to see the addition of a proper machine gun in some form. Not sure how it could be done justice aside from the obvious need for the deployment ability to be active to have any kind of reasonable handling, but if an additional player could somehow be able to act as assistant gunner that could be a lot of fun. Again, not sure how it would work. There is, however, room for both these weapons in the game. The fact that there are currently about a half-dozen different weapons total in this game should maybe be a hint that more varied options are to come.

They have the HMG emplacement for bases, and if they add an engineer class we may get a field deploy-able version, you can see the destroyed ones scattered around the map, so the developers have considered the idea of setting up man operated HMGs as part of the Federation strategy.

[Fuzzy Wumpus]

Sorry, but no. You've let this get into your head so deeply that you can't step back and see the forest for the trees. The devs have made their intent for the Bastion class clear, and are trying to balance things towards that. We'll see where things go with the addition of more weapons and equipment, but as it stands the SAW allows the Bastion to fulfil its intended role reasonably well. I would advocate for perhaps a slightly higher stagger value, but it does not need more damage and it does not need to be unwieldy.

[Tr00puRR]

It does not need more damage. It does not need to be unwieldy. I simply preferred it that way. This is a discussion posted publicly to allow people to discuss their opinions, and I am doing so with those who post. You seem to be misinterpreting my wording or stance, or maybe are getting defensive, I don't know. I do believe that there were more bugs before the update, and reducing them has been a fairly unpopular decision. If the numbers increase again, the damage output of all of our weapons will be an important factor in our enjoyment of the game. Hard to be happy when you're consistently overrun. ARC missions should face the threat of failure, made it a great challenge for random groups. But I also know that the SAW and HAWKEYE have reduced damage output now, which hopefully will not be a horrible reality if the spawns come back in force. The only thing I'll actually argue with anyone is that I like the old saw better, anything else is purely discussion.

[Tr00puRR]

An additional note for those of you keeping track, The Hunter has a high damage sniper rifle,
and the Operator has a high damage grenade launcher. The Bastion just had its most powerful weapon available solely to its class balanced to be more stagger support and a little less damaging. It thankfully suppresses pretty well but its damage is fairly comparable to the Morita Rifle and Carbine. So it kinda looks like the Bastion is the only one without a 'really' deadly weapon for those that wish to use it. If that's the price for heavy body armor I guess I'll pay it, because as any other class I get literally eaten alive.

[Anneruon]

I definitely prefer the overall feel of the new saw.

I dont like that The stagger/knock back seems to have been reduced significantly which feels really off and not in keeping with what the weapon is meant to do. Hopefully this is adjusted.

The lack of damage seems to have been caused by a bug. In veteran mode the Bugs have more health than intended. Hopefully the next patch will resolve this and the Saw (plus the other weapons) will feel like they can kill things again.

[hamster1000]

if i want to delay or stall i use the saw if i want to kill i use the faster firing ar with extended mag

[Satnol]

SAW is good before and after the patch. Super strong weapon when combined with the bastions ability.