Is The Sphinx OP?

[taomastercu]

I dunno about anyone else but Sphinx+Godkings is amazingly good for tile expansion. Only downside I guess is having to luck into that specific Innovation.

[chaney]

If you have lots of the resources it strongly buffs, yes that is a very strong wonder. I'd cut the +2 bonus to +1 at best.

[taomastercu]

Originally posted by chaney:

If you have lots of the resources it strongly buffs, yes that is a very strong wonder. I'd cut the +2 bonus to +1 at best.

Hey, any idea how the game picks what innovation you get? I got Stonehenge which is incredible but I still need to get The Sphinx. I go 2 Innovations Ard Plow and Hearty Steed but I'd like to reroll. I have a couple saves points available.

[chaney]

I don't. Obviously some Innovations need to be unlocked by certain states, and I *suspect* they tend to be more likely if not outright guaranteed under the right circumstances. Even though I like that much about this game is still not uncovered, this is the kind of thing that is big enough to really matter. I'm in a play where I'm taking things I have not tried before, and took Theologians. They don't look like much, but an Innovation boosted a special building giving a flood of XP and Knowledge ... turning the game around very strongly. I like how the various choices in the game have value that isn't obvious, it keeps playing interesting with so many good choices - even choices that don't seem good can be fantastic but it is certainly not guaranteed!

[ikarus_87]

Sort of. National Spirit and government innovations are always top of the list. Other innovations will only be drawn if there are none of those remaining. So, those are pretty much guaranteed.

Many others (though not all) will be unlocked only if you've got at least one improvement related to it or its goods. And most innovations will only be available in a given age.
From this pool, it seems to be quite random. You can try to keep the pool small (variant ages help, they tend to have way fewer innovations) and get a lot of innovation events, that works better in the latter ages though.

[Dissenswurst]

Originally posted by chaney:

I don't. Obviously some Innovations need to be unlocked by certain states, and I *suspect* they tend to be more likely if not outright guaranteed under the right circumstances. Even though I like that much about this game is still not uncovered, this is the kind of thing that is big enough to really matter. I'm in a play where I'm taking things I have not tried before, and took Theologians. They don't look like much, but an Innovation boosted a special building giving a flood of XP and Knowledge ... turning the game around very strongly. I like how the various choices in the game have value that isn't obvious, it keeps playing interesting with so many good choices - even choices that don't seem good can be fantastic but it is certainly not guaranteed!

Yes, it is a good thing if you could overcome your typical 4X reflexes from other games and just try out things in Millennia! I encourage that. And note that many things are still not well-documented. My typical example for this is: To assess the value of the National Spirit 'Explorers' you need to know what remote camps are and what extra properties a knarr has (can cross ocean and can spit out one explorer per turn for a flat 25 exploration XP (cost not increasing)). You find this information neither in the ideals, nor in the tooltips, nor in the infopedia. You just have to find out by yourself.

Sorry for this side rant, but I find this to be a really important point concerning Millennia.

[chaney]

I like your tangent there. Trying Explorers (on top of Hunters) was a real pleasure of an experience. I had no idea how superbly that would work out and it was a great gaming experience to discover that by playing. Other Spirits have given me some great experiences too but the strength is not always obvious and also sometimes delayed a lot. The huge variability in that kind of experience is a solid feature here, but I guess that experience isn't what streamers like to present so the game isn't getting much love - except from the niche of players who dig it.

[Dissenswurst]

Originally posted by chaney:

I like your tangent there. Trying Explorers (on top of Hunters) was a real pleasure of an experience. I had no idea how superbly that would work out and it was a great gaming experience to discover that by playing. Other Spirits have given me some great experiences too but the strength is not always obvious and also sometimes delayed a lot. The huge variability in that kind of experience is a solid feature here, but I guess that experience isn't what streamers like to present so the game isn't getting much love - except from the niche of players who dig it.

Hunters + Explorers: That was the experience from my very first game. Instantly hooked.

[Antearz]

Originally posted by taomastercu:

I dunno about anyone else but Sphinx+Godkings is amazingly good for tile expansion. Only downside I guess is having to luck into that specific Innovation.

Honestly Said.
Wild Hunters with the Spices Innovation is much more Powerful.

For those who dont know.
Wild Hunters provide a Bow Hunter Unit that works like a Fishing Ship on Land and can Hunt Animals far away from your City. (Aside from being Ridiculously Powerful for that Age once Buffed and being able to Beat pretty much anything short of a Fortified and Garrissoned City with a Stack of 4 Bow Hunters.)

But more Importand than that.
It Unlocks and Reveals the Elephants Ressource. Which Provide Ivory and Meat.
It Buff Bones and Ivory to Provide Improvement Points. (Which means your Hunting Camps on Game and Elephants now Provide Improvement Points on top of Money)
It Provides 2 Additional Food for Meat.
And. The Most Importand Part. You ALWAYS get the Spices Innovation as your First Innovation in the Bronze Age once You Pick Wild Hunters.
The Spices Innovation will Provide 1 Culture for every Piece of Meat.
Which means You get 1 Culture for every Hunting Camp and every Pasture.
Hunting Camp can be Build on Beavers, Game and Elephants as well as on any of the Bushland Tiles. And they only cost 9 Improvement Points.
Not to mentiion. Any of your Bow Hunter Units which can Hunt Wild Game, Beavers and Elephants outside your Cities. Will now Provide 1 Culture once You put them onto such a Tile.

This is Insanely Powerful. Because there is pretty much always Tiles You can build a Pasture or Hunting Camp on. Meaning that most of Your Cities will easily be able to Produce their own Culture Upkeep once they got more Population. Which is easy to get because You Drown in Food once You get some Meat going.
Even if You dont want to Build Your City onto a Spot where You can Build any Sort of Meat. You can also just Build it into a Forest or Hilly Area and have the City be a Production Hub. But then Build several Bow Hunter Units in that City so these Bow Hunter Units then Provide Meat and Culture for that City by putting them on Beavers, Wild Game and Elephant Ressources outside your Borders. Thus the City having Plenty of Food without actually needing to have any of its Pops Working a Food Tile.
Resulting in a City which gets Insane Production Numbers.

Its often easily Possible to have 5-6 Full Cities Going in the Iron Age and still make 20-40 Culture per Turn after having Paid the Culture for your Region Capitals.



That is just vastly more Powerful than the Sphinx to be Honest.

[Dissenswurst]

Small correction: Hunting camps cost only 6 improvement points.

[taomastercu]

Originally posted by Antearz:

Originally posted by taomastercu:

I dunno about anyone else but Sphinx+Godkings is amazingly good for tile expansion. Only downside I guess is having to luck into that specific Innovation.

Honestly Said.
Wild Hunters with the Spices Innovation is much more Powerful.

For those who dont know.
Wild Hunters provide a Bow Hunter Unit that works like a Fishing Ship on Land and can Hunt Animals far away from your City. (Aside from being Ridiculously Powerful for that Age once Buffed and being able to Beat pretty much anything short of a Fortified and Garrissoned City with a Stack of 4 Bow Hunters.)

But more Importand than that.
It Unlocks and Reveals the Elephants Ressource. Which Provide Ivory and Meat.
It Buff Bones and Ivory to Provide Improvement Points. (Which means your Hunting Camps on Game and Elephants now Provide Improvement Points on top of Money)
It Provides 2 Additional Food for Meat.
And. The Most Importand Part. You ALWAYS get the Spices Innovation as your First Innovation in the Bronze Age once You Pick Wild Hunters.
The Spices Innovation will Provide 1 Culture for every Piece of Meat.
Which means You get 1 Culture for every Hunting Camp and every Pasture.
Hunting Camp can be Build on Beavers, Game and Elephants as well as on any of the Bushland Tiles. And they only cost 9 Improvement Points.
Not to mentiion. Any of your Bow Hunter Units which can Hunt Wild Game, Beavers and Elephants outside your Cities. Will now Provide 1 Culture once You put them onto such a Tile.

This is Insanely Powerful. Because there is pretty much always Tiles You can build a Pasture or Hunting Camp on. Meaning that most of Your Cities will easily be able to Produce their own Culture Upkeep once they got more Population. Which is easy to get because You Drown in Food once You get some Meat going.
Even if You dont want to Build Your City onto a Spot where You can Build any Sort of Meat. You can also just Build it into a Forest or Hilly Area and have the City be a Production Hub. But then Build several Bow Hunter Units in that City so these Bow Hunter Units then Provide Meat and Culture for that City by putting them on Beavers, Wild Game and Elephant Ressources outside your Borders. Thus the City having Plenty of Food without actually needing to have any of its Pops Working a Food Tile.
Resulting in a City which gets Insane Production Numbers.

Its often easily Possible to have 5-6 Full Cities Going in the Iron Age and still make 20-40 Culture per Turn after having Paid the Culture for your Region Capitals.



That is just vastly more Powerful than the Sphinx to be Honest.

There's certainly some things that are more powerful than others. But if you want to play GodKings the Sphinx is super good. It is better than the actual Godkings buff to stone.

Sphinx + Hence on Godkings is an unbelievable amount of Influence, and Influence is the rarest resource in the game and also has enormous value. With the Sphinx you are getting 6 influence per stone cutter and you can also get your marble from outposts to save tiles. So you can be getting hundreds of influence a turn with the right city.

[ikarus_87]

Influence is rare - but actually not that valuable outside the immediate start. Placing a single town one hex further out from the capital pretty much gives the same benefit as half the entire Godkings National Spirit.

Godkings competes with Wild Hunters for worst Age 2 National Spirit. Wild Hunters suffers from the extreme production cost of the hunters during early game, racking up an incredible opportunity cost, while both the hunting camps as well as the culture bonus on meat have no technological improvements. Apart from the salt house and sort of the ranch improvement line, that's it. No delicacies, no improved hunting camps, just Stone Age tech.

Quite frankly, those two as well as the Khan and War Priests are the four National Spirits that are genuinely too weak. The jury is still out on Siege Masters.

[Dissenswurst]

I find Naturalists weaker than Wild Hunters. In my eyes, Wild Hunters are good for a quick start (only 6 improvement points per hunting camp - and yes, you may replace them later, but that will be at a point of time where you just erase those camps and replace it with more important stuff - starting maybe in ages 5 or 6 - that is only a small loss). You can ramp up some early food quite fast. For farms and pastures you need 12 resp. 15 improvement points.

And I didn't really have problems so far in building those bow hunters. In the early game, I spawn my first town in such a way that it has usually 5 or 6 adjacent forests, so that I can build up my production fast by putting foresters on the forests (as soon as you update the town to level 2 and make it a lumbertown you get 2 production per adjacent forester even without working the tiles).

Since you can get a good amount of food, exploration XP and improvement points with the bow hunters, following Wild Hunters with Explorers is a strong combo. You can usually unlock the ideal 'Remote Camps' immediately and from that point you can see your progress snowballing (at least on huge maps).

Note that the strength of these National Spirits depends heavily on the size of the map. On huge maps, Explorers are insanely strong (since there are tons of remote camps and natural landmarks), and Wild Hunters are at least somewhat stronger since you can probably find much more ivory, deer, and beaver on neatral territory on those maps. If you discuss the strength of the National Spirits just for the default settings (mid-size map), then you get a picture that is incomplete.

[taomastercu]

Originally posted by ikarus_87:

Influence is rare - but actually not that valuable outside the immediate start. Placing a single town one hex further out from the capital pretty much gives the same benefit as half the entire Godkings National Spirit.

Godkings competes with Wild Hunters for worst Age 2 National Spirit. Wild Hunters suffers from the extreme production cost of the hunters during early game, racking up an incredible opportunity cost, while both the hunting camps as well as the culture bonus on meat have no technological improvements. Apart from the salt house and sort of the ranch improvement line, that's it. No delicacies, no improved hunting camps, just Stone Age tech.

Quite frankly, those two as well as the Khan and War Priests are the four National Spirits that are genuinely too weak. The jury is still out on Siege Masters.

Influence is good if you run Godkings/Machinery/Sultans and then into Age of Aether.

Having a few hundred tiles in a mega city is just a ton of fun and if you max things out and focus on bonus worker techs you end up over 200 workers in a city. Yes town placement matters but that *stacks* with lots of influence. Also if you want a second large region and you get Great Sphinx you can simply send all your marble from outposts to the new region and also build some stone cutters and suddenly you are getting quite explosive growth due to getting many dozens of influence from day 1 of a new region. Also Stone is a very strong production resource and it combos well with metal buildings because you are in the hills anyways and have hill expansion speed.

[ikarus_87]

Naturalists is probably the strongest economic Age 2 NS - but it depends a lot on the map. If fully skilled through, an unimproved forest tile is a match for Age 4 improvements, Age 5 if it's a lush one. Without requiring any investment in improvement points, neither in improvements nor research. It allows you to get any capital to 15+ pops at 200% without investing any improvement points - and those are very, very expensive in the early game. Furthermore, it is pretty much the NS with the highest production churning through those buildings as well as the one with the highest culture income. You will lack money though since you need to commit to the forest tiles. That will set you up for some nice lumber towns though, as soon as you get a decent source of improvement points in Age 4 or 5.

Key word being 'fully skilled through'. You need at least two sources of Exploration XP in your homeland, better three, as well as enough forest tiles while not being restricted by them going into the midgame.
And you need to expand into new regions early, since your capital will have a bunch of improvements from before you skilled through the NS. It's mostly beneficial for your second through to your fifth integrated region, which you want to get asap.

Furthermore, it's the best NS to go for Explorers (which are indeed quite strong) - your scouts will be three times faster sprinting through the forests hunting for those juicy, juicy remote camps while being the next best thing to unkillable.
By the way, I mostly play on huge maps. It helps avoid early wars.


An unworked tile is useless, housing and sanitation excluded. The first two rings around your capitals and towns are quite cheap and will already get you 50+ tiles in Age 3. The third ring will come in time and double that. After that, you get the fourth ring, third and fourth town and double job slots on many improvements. With proper spacing, tiles are just plain not an issue after the first 30 turns, jungle starts maybe exluded.
Stone is ok for its age, but it will be replaced by metal pretty much immediately and has no tech upgrades. Maybe it's different on slow though, with a longer period when it can be somewhat competitive.

[Antearz]

Originally posted by ikarus_87:

Naturalists is probably the strongest economic Age 2 NS - but it depends a lot on the map. If fully skilled through, an unimproved forest tile is a match for Age 4 improvements, Age 5 if it's a lush one. Without requiring any investment in improvement points, neither in improvements nor research. It allows you to get any capital to 15+ pops at 200% without investing any improvement points - and those are very, very expensive in the early game. Furthermore, it is pretty much the NS with the highest production churning through those buildings as well as the one with the highest culture income. You will lack money though since you need to commit to the forest tiles. That will set you up for some nice lumber towns though, as soon as you get a decent source of improvement points in Age 4 or 5.

Key word being 'fully skilled through'. You need at least two sources of Exploration XP in your homeland, better three, as well as enough forest tiles while not being restricted by them going into the midgame.
And you need to expand into new regions early, since your capital will have a bunch of improvements from before you skilled through the NS. It's mostly beneficial for your second through to your fifth integrated region, which you want to get asap.

Furthermore, it's the best NS to go for Explorers (which are indeed quite strong) - your scouts will be three times faster sprinting through the forests hunting for those juicy, juicy remote camps while being the next best thing to unkillable.
By the way, I mostly play on huge maps. It helps avoid early wars.


An unworked tile is useless, housing and sanitation excluded. The first two rings around your capitals and towns are quite cheap and will already get you 50+ tiles in Age 3. The third ring will come in time and double that. After that, you get the fourth ring, third and fourth town and double job slots on many improvements. With proper spacing, tiles are just plain not an issue after the first 30 turns, jungle starts maybe exluded.
Stone is ok for its age, but it will be replaced by metal pretty much immediately and has no tech upgrades. Maybe it's different on slow though, with a longer period when it can be somewhat competitive.

You are Joking Right ?
Naturalists is basicly one of the Worst choices in the Second Age.

Naturalists Provide a +1 Food and 0.5 Culture Bonus for any Unimproved Tile.
Thats it.

Now lets Check this.

Basic Forest gives 1 Food and 1 Production by Default.
For Naturalists this instead is 2 Food and 1 Production as well as 0.5 Culture.
With an Improvement it is 2 Production by Default.
With a Woodcutter Town getting +2 Production for every Woodcutter Improvement. Its 4 Production.

This is the Best tile for Naturalists. And frankly the only one where they make Sense at all.
Because here they at least get Culture while getting close in terms of Actual Productivity.
But even so. All it does is giving them some Food and Culture.


For Fertile Forests it already changes.
They give 1 Food and 2 Production by Default.
For Naturalist this becomes 2 Food, 2 Production and 0.5 Culture.
But with an Improvement. It actually becomes 4 Production.
With a Woodcutter Town its 6 Production.


Other Tiles however are just Straight up Worse.
Grasland is 2 Food by Default. Going to 3 Food for Improvements. Which the Naturalists get without Improvements.
But in a Farmer Town its 4 Food.
So Naturalists only Advantage is they dont need to Spend Improvement Points but also get a bit less Food.
Bushland is outright Worse. Being 2 Food for Naturalists but being 3 Food for others with Improvements. And Towns get a +2 Wealth Bonus for each Improvement.

For Ressource Tiles it gets even Worse.
Because these Produce some Extra Good on top of the already Equal Production.
And Naturalists dont get these.


But the True Cost is different.
The True Cost is in Advanced Goods and Domain Points.
Because the actually Good and High Production Stuff. Comes from actually doing something with the Goods.
Because the Processing of the Goods will Generally Double their Value. (For Mines even more than Double as they Increase it by 2.5 Times)
And on top they Provide a Domain Point.
Which the Naturalists dont get unless Abandoning their Bonusses.




And pls Note. This is Compared to having no Spirit.
If You use a different Spirit. Like for example Wild Hunters.
An Improved Bushland will Produce 5 Food and 1 Culture instead of the 2 Food for Naturalists. And they dont have to abandon Ressources or Processing for that.

So while You may have fairly Self Sustaining Cities in terms of Food.
And can get enough Production by Deliberately Settling into Forests.
You will completely Fail at Advancing Domains.
And where my Bow Hunters give me 1 Additional Culture for each Piece of Meat be it from Pastures or Hunters. Your Naturalists only get 0.5 Culture from Forests which they cannot even Improve. Thus having them Stuck on being purely Gathering Tiles that Provide no Ressources for Processing. And which You need to have inside the City. While I can just Send out Bow Hunters to Provide for the City from further out.
Not to mention my Hunting Camps still giving an Adjacent Town +2 Wealth as well.
Thus the Tile effectively giving me 5 Food, 1 Culture and 2 Wealth.
Vs Naturalists which get 2 Food and nothing else.



So Yeah. No.
Sorry. But Naturalists are Frankly among the Worst Choice for the Second Age.
They Completely Block your Progress because You lock yourself out of Processing.