Game is full of anti-fun mechanics

[Reddz]

We can't check the shop or assign jobs to extra characters and then go fight? Why? It doesn't even make sense. Checking a weapon rack takes 4 minutes, not half a day. And a party could simply split up. You go train, you hit the job board, you head to the arena. Wasting days on what should be basic menu functions isn't fun.

Character stats and skills are rng? Why? Only improving 2 stats per level is limiting enough. They don't need to be random. That's not fun. Wasting so much time trying to train or replace a gimped character isn't fun. A worse outcome in this time limited campaign due to bad luck isn't fun.

We have to run around the battlefield picking up sacks before we finish off the enemies? Why? You couldn't make that automatic? Does the arena manager run out and start yelling "The battle's over! You don't have time to grab those bandages, get lost!" A lack of basic QoL isn't fun.

Is any of this subject to change or do you really think it's fine as is?

[Darbie]

I agree that the time mechanic is strange. If I have enough money to afford a larger group, let me use them all.

I also agree about the loot not being picked up being weird.

From a QoL stand point, i'd also point out the strange way the soldier list just rearranges itself. Either have it stay the same, or let us arrange it.

[Devil_JCS]

Originally posted by Darbie:

I agree that the time mechanic is strange. If I have enough money to afford a larger group, let me use them all.

I also agree about the loot not being picked up being weird.

From a QoL stand point, i'd also point out the strange way the soldier list just rearranges itself. Either have it stay the same, or let us arrange it.

Yeah, I agree with the soldier list thing. It probably should be either static or allow custom edits.

Anyway, yeah, the game could use some QoL changes. I agree that auto-looting sacks in arena should be a thing, as it can be annoying or even dangerous to drag out a fight just so you can loot a sack all the way on the other side of the map. Another would be for manual save mode; a few autosave slots would be huge since manual save mode always autosaves over your last save. In other words, to create an alternate save, you have to save in battle to a different slot (which then becomes the new autosave target), which is kind of annoying.

As for time? Hmm... For balance reasons I can understand why it takes away time to dispatch people for jobs. I mean, if you had like 10 characters (probably too many for brutal unless there are golems involved but eh), you'd be able to just dispatch for additional tasks while doing arena matches for tons of money. It'd probably break the game's economy in half.

[Sinister Design]

Hi Reddz! The character advancement system here is modeled on Fire Emblem, the originator of the SRPG genre and--last I checked--the most popular SRPG franchise in existence. The RNG aspect to character advancement here is actually toned down from FE, believe it or not!

"We have to run around the battlefield picking up sacks before we finish off the enemies? Why? You couldn't make that automatic?"

These are what we in the SRPG design business call "side objectives." They force you to make judgment calls--do you have enough action economy to grab all the loot, or will you risk your characters' safety (or some portion of the prize money) to try to grab everything? Auto-looting is turned on in most of the non-arena fights, but the arena has its own rules to help keep things tense.

Similar deal for the time points system: you can't just split up your characters and do everything every single day because that would evaporate the challenge and turn the management side of the game into a complete snoozefest. And it's not like going to the shop would suddenly turn into a thrilling, hjgh-stakes jaunt if you could do it every day.

The common theme between these things is that Together in Battle regularly asks the player to make choices; to get one thing, you must oftentimes sacrifice another thing. Calling that lack of QOL fundamentally misunderstands what the game is doing.

[Reddz]

Originally posted by Sinister Design:

Hi Reddz! The character advancement system here is modeled on Fire Emblem, the originator of the SRPG genre and--last I checked--the most popular SRPG franchise in existence. The RNG aspect to character advancement here is actually toned down from FE, believe it or not!

"We have to run around the battlefield picking up sacks before we finish off the enemies? Why? You couldn't make that automatic?"

These are what we in the SRPG design business call "side objectives." They force you to make judgment calls--do you have enough action economy to grab all the loot, or will you risk your characters' safety (or some portion of the prize money) to try to grab everything? Auto-looting is turned on in most of the non-arena fights, but the arena has its own rules to help keep things tense.

Similar deal for the time points system: you can't just split up your characters and do everything every single day because that would evaporate the challenge and turn the management side of the game into a complete snoozefest. And it's not like going to the shop would suddenly turn into a thrilling, hjgh-stakes jaunt if you could do it every day.

The common theme between these things is that Together in Battle regularly asks the player to make choices; to get one thing, you must oftentimes sacrifice another thing. Calling that lack of QOL fundamentally misunderstands what the game is doing.

In Fire Emblem you automatically loot enemies as you defeat them. In Tactics Ogre the loot sacks are automatically picked up post battle. You already earned the loot by winning the battle.

In every other SRPG shopping for gear isn't a "high-stakes jaunt," it's simply a thing that you do to prepare for battle. Characters need equipment. You earn enough gold, enter a menu, click "shop," and buy them equipment.

I know that things like rng level ups and weapon durability are FE staples. They're also decades old systems. The FE franchise itself has evolved past them. Infinite level loops, stat items. Engage has fixed stat growths. So do some other modern SRPGs. So do many older FE romhacks.

Many of us here in the SRPG playing business think the challenge should come from the battles themselves, not rng and time limits. We enjoy having the freedom to try a variety of characters/classes, build and equip them how we see fit, and use them to overcome tactical battles.

I understand the design choice behind the fixed story battles. Persona style calendar and time limit. But everything else is a bit extra. Makes the game feel tedious and unrewarding.

[Sinister Design]

You're certainly entitled to your opinion!

I would recommend playing on a difficulty setting that trivializes the management aspect of the game (such as Challenging- or All Tactics) so you can focus on the parts you find fun. I would also recommend making use of the Trainer, which is there for the exact purpose of counteracting the RNG inherent to stats gained from level-ups.

[blauerbrummer]

Well for what it is worth, i like this many decisions. Do i want better equipment instead of going to the arena? Do i need new recruits? Like Sinister Design said, it would destroy one of this games core mechanics if you could do all of it every day. Same with the loot in the arena fights. Have i a ice mage who can freeze the last enemy to loot? Is it worth the risk? Decisions, decisions.

But i understand that this is not for everyone fun. Just wanted to bring in my two cents to this discussions.

[Reddz]

"Prices are low" doesn't alleviate any of these problems.

I check the store. It has nothing useful. Time was wasted.
I check the recruitment office. It has no decent units. No classes that I'm looking for. Time was wasted.

This is really essential? The game's balanced around wasting your time? That's unfortunate. I can't enjoy that. Oh well. I'm happy for anyone that can.

The trainer was a nice addition. Needing a day just to assign the training on top of the 2-5 days occupied by the training itself was a bit much.

[Sinister Design]

"Wasting your time" is certainly not the phrase I would use! I would say that Together in Battle is designed around the principle of "making the most of what you have." The game is designed, quite deliberately, so that you can succeed even if some of your characters are mediocre, or have average equipment, or belong to classes you weren't originally intending to use.

The game asks you to be efficient and adaptable, and I've designed it with the aim of providing a lot of tools to make that work. Not just the trainer--permanent stat boosters (Salubrious Draughts, Protein Pellets, Mycelium Drops), manuals that enhance or teach individual skills, and items that can permanently improve your weapons (Whetstones, Poisoned Sheathes, Counterweights, Reinforcing Spines, etc.) are other examples.

I've been a vocal proponent of lowering RNG in RPGs for well over a decade--which is exactly why you see mechanics in TIB such as every attack having 100% hit chance by default, tons of accuracy-boosting items, no crits, and the Mental element consisting entirely of skills that simply cannot miss, ever.

However, I make a distinction between randomized results (granular randomness that causes individual actions to completely fail or wildly over-deliver, like missing or critting individual character attacks) and environmental randomness (situational randomness that alters the spectrum of options available to the player). I wrote about it here[sinisterdesign.net] some 13 years ago if you're curious!

If you really are regularly encountering situations where you go to the shop or the recruiter and absolutely nothing worthwhile is there, then I would love to hear more details I can use to massage things. (I do want there to always be at least one decent choice on those screens!)

[Darbie]

Originally posted by Sinister Design:

These are what we in the SRPG design business call "side objectives." They force you to make judgment calls--do you have enough action economy to grab all the loot, or will you risk your characters' safety (or some portion of the prize money) to try to grab everything? Auto-looting is turned on in most of the non-arena fights, but the arena has its own rules to help keep things tense.

I have had multiple instances of the last enemy I kill dropping loot; even worse, being the one that picked up loot from a chest; and that loot then just disappearing into the aether.

At the bare minimum, give us the loot from the final enemy we kill, since the battle ends at that point. That isn't a choice anymore.

[Devil_JCS]

Originally posted by Darbie:

Originally posted by Sinister Design:

These are what we in the SRPG design business call "side objectives." They force you to make judgment calls--do you have enough action economy to grab all the loot, or will you risk your characters' safety (or some portion of the prize money) to try to grab everything? Auto-looting is turned on in most of the non-arena fights, but the arena has its own rules to help keep things tense.

I have had multiple instances of the last enemy I kill dropping loot; even worse, being the one that picked up loot from a chest; and that loot then just disappearing into the aether.

At the bare minimum, give us the loot from the final enemy we kill, since the battle ends at that point. That isn't a choice anymore.

Yeah, that's happened to me more times than I can count. Yeah, you could make sure that the last enemy isn't one that's collected a sack, but that is very frequently not an option.

[Sinister Design]

Originally posted by Darbie:

I have had multiple instances of the last enemy I kill dropping loot; even worse, being the one that picked up loot from a chest; and that loot then just disappearing into the aether.

This, I think I can address! I'll see if I can put in a special condition for arena fights to keep the game from checking for victory conditions until the end of a turn. This way, the battle won't immediately end when the final enemy falls and you'll have a chance to grab their item sack.

[Darbie]

Originally posted by Sinister Design:

Originally posted by Darbie:

I have had multiple instances of the last enemy I kill dropping loot; even worse, being the one that picked up loot from a chest; and that loot then just disappearing into the aether.

This, I think I can address! I'll see if I can put in a special condition for arena fights to keep the game from checking for victory conditions until the end of a turn. This way, the battle won't immediately end when the final enemy falls and you'll have a chance to grab their item sack.

That would be great!

[Sinister Design]

All right, that turned out to be very easy to add. That's now in for the next update!

[MarioFanaticXV]

Originally posted by Sinister Design:

Originally posted by Darbie:

I have had multiple instances of the last enemy I kill dropping loot; even worse, being the one that picked up loot from a chest; and that loot then just disappearing into the aether.

This, I think I can address! I'll see if I can put in a special condition for arena fights to keep the game from checking for victory conditions until the end of a turn. This way, the battle won't immediately end when the final enemy falls and you'll have a chance to grab their item sack.

Are you calling it "the Gloomhaven rule"?

[Sinister Design]

I've never played Gloomhaven, believe it or not 😅