Scripting

[fish__eyes]

I have always tried to stay as positive as I can about the games scripting. It has been in football games for years.

But since data pack 2 I feel it has got way worse. I keep getting hammered by 300 rated people that have lost 70% of their games. My players just cant make a pass.

Anyone else feeling it has gotten worse since the data pack?

I'm not wanting to start a anti pes or anti konami post and will just delete the thread if it get toxic. Just curious about other people experience.

[76561198421440432]

Yes the game becomes scripted an unplayble

The players at times look like they don´t know what they are doing

Ball crosses through them, like they aren´t there

[fish__eyes]

Originally posted by Lord of the boards:

Yes the game becomes scripted an unplayble

The players at times look like they don´t know what they are doing

Ball crosses through them, like they aren´t there

I came back to PES in March from FIFA 20. I would go and play FIFA 21 but I don't like the arcadey gameplay and it has its own scripting problem.

PES has so much going for it and I just wish the gameplay would be consistent. I might just have to take breaks from playing it so I can enjoy it at times.

[BasilhsGR]

This year the game is garbage since day one, waste of money. The scripting is the worst that ever being, even FIFA is better. I can't believe I'm telling this but I'm also going back to FIFA, there is nothing to play in MyClub plus the cheating is out of hand.

[djradu_85]

The cheating is in all championships ,I’m not surprised if the connection between players got so broken do the amount of so many software,programs,attacks ,pshising by cheaters ,becoming so instable ,now seems like almost game in first half all good,in second half if I score first game get slowly and for me ,if opponent score first ,the same after that but only for me.opponent still running at top speed.

Originally posted by BasilhsGR:

This year the game is garbage since day one, waste of money. The scripting is the worst that ever being, even FIFA is better. I can't believe I'm telling this but I'm also going back to FIFA, there is nothing to play in MyClub plus the cheating is out of hand.

[aK]

Just type in google. EA Dynamic difficulty patent. Don't be a mindless consumer but understand the business behind it. Stop being a gamer for a moment and think like someone looking to maximize profit with the least amount of effort possible.

These methods are used by pretty much all coders intended or not. Football Manager is one that is touted as not using these scripts, but they too are secretly using Dynamic game difficulty balancing (DGDB) in their match engine. This is something no game developer wants leaked if they want to hide that they are using it.

There is nothing wrong with admitting to using Rubber-Banding AI and most developers used to add the option to turn it off, remember "slower car catchup" in older games? However unlike racing games Football is a dynamic game of 22 players and a moving ball, it's far more complicated than cars going around a track on a racing line, it's ever changing and complex and there needs to be a way to quantify outcomes so that it resembles an actual Football match.

Originally Rubber-banding AI was not used as a monetary weapon, it was used to simplify algorithms and increase optimization by limiting the amount of outcomes. In real life if you were to pass a ball to your friend, each time would be slightly different in some way, in video gaming calculating such detail would be a stupid waste of resources so outcomes are limited based on what the user is doing. Only a certain amount of things can happen at any given moment in a video game and you can boost or handicap those actions to control the match. This is what AI does it tries to simulate intelligence artificially by being deceptive and try make it seem believable.

If you play against an AI bot on full difficulty in shooter games, they will headshot you instantly from across the map, so the coders make sure this does not happen by adding error margins, give it less errors and it will perform better, give it more errors to make it more easy.

FIFA, PES , FM all do the same thing, they don't "script" in a way like it sounds, but they do handicap you and steer outcomes into a direction ( which we call scripting ), if there is a list of 10 outcomes at any given moment and your handicap is high, they will turn a far less beneficial outcome for you which is then represented as the defender mis-kicking the ball or a wild shot from out of the box.

Now they have found out the monetary benefits to these algorithms, they never will be removed and will probably remain till someone manages to expose it, or somehow get access to the source code of any of those titles. ( which is harder than you think, they defend it with fire )

PEZ, FIFA and Football manager"x" have been using it for a long time and it's been a cash cow, they won't stop unless forced.


EDIT : Also care what you wish for, creating a Football game with no dynamic difficulty is a very hard thing to do, i honestly do not think there is a coding team on earth able to pull it off without using the concept in some way. It's just way too much computation, way to organic to emulate. It would take some very smart people to recreate a football game engine that does not use any form of dynamic AI and still make the game seem recognizable as a Football match.

To give some intuition here, lets say we get 22 human players to play a game of Football and the ball follows normal newtonian pyhsics, this would be organic because each player is controller by a person and the ball simply follow what each user does. However when you start replacing those humans with AI, it's harder than you think and this is where limiting outcomes is needed, the human knows not to randomly boot the ball out of play, but the computer needs to be told that is not an option and is given a list of things he can do rather than a list of things he must NOT do.

[fish__eyes]

Originally posted by aK:

Just type in google. EA Dynamic difficulty patent. Don't be a mindless consumer but understand the business behind it. Stop being a gamer for a moment and think like someone looking to maximize profit with the least amount of effort possible.

These methods are used by pretty much all coders intended or not. Football Manager is one that is touted as not using these scripts, but they too are secretly using Dynamic game difficulty balancing (DGDB) in their match engine. This is something no game developer wants leaked if they want to hide that they are using it.

There is nothing wrong with admitting to using Rubber-Banding AI and most developers used to add the option to turn it off, remember "slower car catchup" in older games? However unlike racing games Football is a dynamic game of 22 players and a moving ball, it's far more complicated than cars going around a track on a racing line, it's ever changing and complex and there needs to be a way to quantify outcomes so that it resembles an actual Football match.

Originally Rubber-banding AI was not used as a monetary weapon, it was used to simplify algorithms and increase optimization by limiting the amount of outcomes. In real life if you were to pass a ball to your friend, each time would be slightly different in some way, in video gaming calculating such detail would be a stupid waste of resources so outcomes are limited based on what the user is doing. Only a certain amount of things can happen at any given moment in a video game and you can boost or handicap those actions to control the match. This is what AI does it tries to simulate intelligence artificially by being deceptive and try make it seem believable.

If you play against an AI bot on full difficulty in shooter games, they will headshot you instantly from across the map, so the coders make sure this does not happen by adding error margins, give it less errors and it will perform better, give it more errors to make it more easy.

FIFA, PES , FM all do the same thing, they don't "script" in a way like it sounds, but they do handicap you and steer outcomes into a direction ( which we call scripting ), if there is a list of 10 outcomes at any given moment and your handicap is high, they will turn a far less beneficial outcome for you which is then represented as the defender mis-kicking the ball or a wild shot from out of the box.

Now they have found out the monetary benefits to these algorithms, they never will be removed and will probably remain till someone manages to expose it, or somehow get access to the source code of any of those titles. ( which is harder than you think, they defend it with fire )

PEZ, FIFA and Football manager"x" have been using it for a long time and it's been a cash cow, they won't stop unless forced.


EDIT : Also care what you wish for, creating a Football game with no dynamic difficulty is a very hard thing to do, i honestly do not think there is a coding team on earth able to pull it off without using the concept in some way. It's just way too much computation, way to organic to emulate. It would take some very smart people to recreate a football game engine that does not use any form of dynamic AI and still make the game seem recognizable as a Football match.

To give some intuition here, lets say we get 22 human players to play a game of Football and the ball follows normal newtonian pyhsics, this would be organic because each player is controller by a person and the ball simply follow what each user does. However when you start replacing those humans with AI, it's harder than you think and this is where limiting outcomes is needed, the human knows not to randomly boot the ball out of play, but the computer needs to be told that is not an option and is given a list of things he can do rather than a list of things he must NOT do.

Yes everything you have said is common knowledge and is very obvious. My post was about if anyone else felt it had gotten worse since the data pack.

[Tiago Wakabayashi (senna88909)]

I havent seen a too handcapped PES in my life. There is a time you cant do a single pass from defence or clean the ball from own area without happen a ping pong play, ending with a rival finishing and the goal. Lately i am not suffering much with this but I dunno till when.

[fish__eyes]

Originally posted by Tiago Wakabayashi (senna88909):

I havent seen a too handcapped PES in my life. There is a time you cant do a single pass from defence or clean the ball from own area without happen a ping pong play, ending with a rival finishing and the goal. Lately i am not suffering much with this but I dunno till when.

I feel you. I had that happen to me against a 400 rated opponent last night! The ball would just bounce off my player when I tried to make a pass and go right to them. I don't mind scripting being in the game. Its just when its impossible to win.

[marsstrom]

The irony here is that most people are complaining about cheating online. The definition of idiocy, instead of reporting directly to Konami, and focusing on forums on the scripting that is ruining the game online and offline and that is affecting the core game the engine most of users are littering and spamming the forums with lagging exploits instead of reporting cheaters directly to konami site. The Scripting problem that is the elephant in the room get pushed away. This why the anti consumersim and in game purchases cards are existent using the scripting that pushes players to buy new cards. Users enable them by making horrible decision every year.They buy a full game with all those modes but their focus goes into online part, is insanity and repeating same mistakes every year , buying a full priced game for 60$+ but focusing on one one aspect and leaning toward what konami wants more in game sales. Instead of having a community that is in sync and support each other in letting Konami know that Scripting is anti consumerism along with rest their main focus goes on lag online... when the core of the game is Scripted and geared toward manipulation of the game, is just pure insanity is the elephant in the room and no one seems to get together to speak. Than they expect the rest to work as the lag, when the entire game is rigged thus the rest, but in their logic the lag is the main problem with the game, the definition of insanity. There is no difference in logic between FIFA users and PES users, they buy cards and they focus only online and support every year the same anti consumer methods of scripting by buying every year the same game and in game sales, they make you facepalm, definition of insanity is doing every year the same thing, but expecting things to change, and thats what they doing is so bad is not laughable anymore is just sad, total zombies.

This scripting now is full documented overt and over again online and offline
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLVGNswgRtY&feature=emb_title
https://www.naguide.com/efootball-pes-2020-scripting-works/

[marsstrom]

According to the engine of PES what messi does in reality should not be possible

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sphHO8-dGnk

I played ARMA, played football manager, played all kind of simulators and PES is the worst of simulators, if even a simulator, its so limited to reality it has very little connection and takes very few elements in consideration. I also played professionally myself football, PES leaves so many elements out of real football, in my opinion its not even close to simulator.