are there any fabled weapons worse than regular weapons?

[L9 dorothea]

i played gunslinger and i exchanged my gun for the blunderbuss and it just felt worse in most ways except for the extra mobility

[bzcharkl]

All of them have drawbacks in some way, they're not necessarily meant to be upgrades.

[Ridesdragons]

most of the fabled weapons have some drawback that makes them more difficult to get mileage out of compared to their base version, but iirc have better output when used optimally. the pizza, for example, is weird, but apparently one of the best weapons in the game, if you can use it right.

there are a few stinkers, though. the hammer is just the axe's weak aerial attack, but weaker and 24/7, the sock puppet gets .25 more strength to its damage modifier at the cost of losing out on 1.6 int mult, the umbrella is just really hard to actually use properly without killing yourself, and the ballista (my beloved) happens to be the community's most hated weapon due to locking you in place on the ground for a good 2 seconds just to attack.

ultimately, though, it usually comes down to personal preference. I love the ballista and pre-change crow storm (post change is pretty nutty too though), and can't stand the spoons or blunderbuss. chances are, if you find a fabled weapon that you find to be better than the base, there's likely someone else who hates it, and vice versa lol

[Noway]

Balista and umbrella killed my true rogue runs. These weapons are literally unplayable.

Kinda sad that it's the last update, it would have been great to see all weapons being somewhat usable since you're being transmogrified in that new mode and it'd be great if it wasn't an insta reset when you get those 2 weapons.

[Virgil]

Originally posted by Ridesdragons:

most of the fabled weapons have some drawback that makes them more difficult to get mileage out of compared to their base version, but iirc have better output when used optimally. the pizza, for example, is weird, but apparently one of the best weapons in the game, if you can use it right.

there are a few stinkers, though. the hammer is just the axe's weak aerial attack, but weaker and 24/7, the sock puppet gets .25 more strength to its damage modifier at the cost of losing out on 1.6 int mult, the umbrella is just really hard to actually use properly without killing yourself, and the ballista (my beloved) happens to be the community's most hated weapon due to locking you in place on the ground for a good 2 seconds just to attack.

I had a pretty interesting run recently with a hammer + Icarus wings combo on a barb, and it was pretty cool. I could somersault through the air indefinitely, which worked really well when stacking poison with the Stinger and some other stuff. It's definitely niche, which I think is intentional, but when it works, it's pretty cool.

I can't speak for any kind of super high level play though, I'm sure as people approach things like NG+15 and beyond the dynamics change quite a bit. I haven't gotten that far yet. I'm also fond of the Ballista.

[Ridesdragons]

Originally posted by Virgil:

I had a pretty interesting run recently with a hammer + Icarus wings combo on a barb, and it was pretty cool. I could somersault through the air indefinitely, which worked really well when stacking poison with the Stinger and some other stuff. It's definitely niche, which I think is intentional, but when it works, it's pretty cool.

I can't speak for any kind of super high level play though, I'm sure as people approach things like NG+15 and beyond the dynamics change quite a bit. I haven't gotten that far yet. I'm also fond of the Ballista.

the problem with the hammer is that, that run you did with hammer + wings, you could've also just done with the axe, and you would've done better, as the hammer has nearly half of the damage the axe does (.7 str for axe vs .4 str for hammer). furthermore, you could've also taken heavy stone in that combo and benefited more with axe than hammer, as axe gets a cd (which doesn't matter if you're doing infinite flying spins) whereas hammer makes you move slower. in fact, when I first started playing, axe + wings was my favourite combo (it was before I found out about skill crits, and that standing attacks were always skill crits), and so I thought the hammer, which was the air attack but all the time, would just be better. cue my disappointment when I found out it was just worse in every way.

at least the other stinkers have something going for it (puppet is superfluid-infinite-dashes-lite, umbrella deletes projectiles, ballista hits like a truck), but the hammer is just... bad. I really wonder why they decided to just take the axe's air attack and then nerf it. an argument could be made if the hammer had .8 or more str, as then you lose the axe's ground atk and crit but gain an improved air attack that works 24/7, but instead it's just worse. you lose nearly everything the axe had, and then you take the one thing you didn't remove and halve the damage. just, why?

[Virgil]

Originally posted by Ridesdragons:

the problem with the hammer is that, that run you did with hammer + wings, you could've also just done with the axe, and you would've done better, as the hammer has nearly half of the damage the axe does (.7 str for axe vs .4 str for hammer). furthermore, you could've also taken heavy stone in that combo and benefited more with axe than hammer, as axe gets a cd (which doesn't matter if you're doing infinite flying spins) whereas hammer makes you move slower. in fact, when I first started playing, axe + wings was my favourite combo (it was before I found out about skill crits, and that standing attacks were always skill crits), and so I thought the hammer, which was the air attack but all the time, would just be better. cue my disappointment when I found out it was just worse in every way.

at least the other stinkers have something going for it (puppet is superfluid-infinite-dashes-lite, umbrella deletes projectiles, ballista hits like a truck), but the hammer is just... bad. I really wonder why they decided to just take the axe's air attack and then nerf it. an argument could be made if the hammer had .8 or more str, as then you lose the axe's ground atk and crit but gain an improved air attack that works 24/7, but instead it's just worse. you lose nearly everything the axe had, and then you take the one thing you didn't remove and half the damage. just, why?

Good points all around. I do tend to stick with vanilla weapons most of the time, unless I end up with some oddball combo of traits or something that might lend itself to a fabled, but I will admit that's rare. Losing the skill crits on the axe is definitely painful, but I had no idea the hammer was almost half the base strength of the axe to boot.

I'm glad you pointed that out.

[Gnodab]

The Hammer is definitely weak at base. But it also scales a ridiculous amount with Boxing Bell, to a higher degree than any other weapon in the game, really. You acquire stacks super fast, you perma-Skill Crit with it, and it's very easy to keep the stacks. Heavy Stone is the same way - free 50% weapon damage, and all it does is slow you down a bit more and have a negligible cooldown.

Because Hammer has such a straightforward play style, you also can't really buff it without displacing other weapons.

Pizza does 0.6 Str for instance, and it hits much less frequently than the Hammer. It has limited range and you need to hit the sweet spot for it to deal real damage. And yet it's one of the best boss killer weapons in the game. If you were to buff Hammer even to 0.5, it would easily supplant Pizza in usefulness.

If a Gunslinger uses the Hammer, he now has an infinite ammo melee-range Revolver. It's the same damage, you just need to Dash to skill crit. And as it's pretty difficult to keep Combo stacks with Revolver, you don't have that problem with Hammer.

Celestial Sceptre is similar to the Hammer, but only does 0.2 on its ticks, and Hammer does 0.4. Sceptre is another one of the best weapons in the game.

So we need to keep these things in mind. If you just look at base numbers, yeah, Hammer is weak. But you can't buff it without throwing other things out of whack. Every Fabled Weapon has a downside; I see the weak base damage as Hammer's downside more than the movement penalty.

To address the comparisons with Labrys - FWIW, I was never a fan of Labrys being as powerful as it is. It's been nerfed several times, but its versatility is its main strength. You have one of the best air attacks in the game as well as the easiest Skill Crit in the game. About its only weakness is its limited mana regen, which most people ignore because smash smash weapon builds. Comparing anything to the Labrys is usually going to end up with the Labrys on top, because it's just undeniably good.

[Ridesdragons]

pizza has the upside of being able to have multiple projectiles in the air at a time, artificially increasing the tick rate, and also has more range than the hammer which is melee only, and pretty small at that

the revolver I've never had any issues with keeping combo up, as reload time scales with how empty the magazine is. partial reloads give you more than enough time to keep shots down range. I often use partial reloads even without the bell specifically to avoid having long periods of down time, since it can mean missing windows of opportunity. in fact, I actually have an easier time keeping up stacks with the revolver than with the hammer, since I can easily hit someone at range without risking taking a fireball to the face, whereas hammer requires me to walk into the soldier's smacking range.

celestial scepter is also a set and forget weapon, and thus puts the user at 0 risk, while the hammer is, again, a very short-ranged melee weapon. even setting the black hole down on the enemy gives you more leeway than attacking with the hammer, as the black hole is centered fairly in front of you, rather than on you.

in absolutely none of the above scenarios you mentioned would I take hammer over them. well, ok, maybe the pizza, but only because I'm bad at using the pizza. that's a matter of skill issue, not preference. if I was any decent with the pizza, I'd prefer it over the hammer, too.

while it's true labrys is just really strong as-is and so comparisons may not be fair from that standpoint, it also bears repeating that the hammer is literally just labrys' air attack, and so anything you could do with the hammer, you can do with the axe. as I mentioned above, you can just use axe + wings if you wanted 24/7 air attack. it does mean taking bonus damage due to the wings' downside, but since it essentially gives you a better hammer and flight, I'd argue that more than a fair tradeoff. also, in regards to heavy stone bargain, the hammer slows your movement when attacking normally, and slows further if using heavy stone bargain. and the slow isn't negligible, either, as it drops from 75% move speed to 45%. the axe doesn't get slowed at all. really, the only benefits the hammer gets over labrys is the ability to do the air attack without the need for wings on the ground, which I personally don't find to be very useful due to the limited range (the axe's ground attack has more range than its air attack anyway), and the ability to get mana while doing the air attack, which, as you pointed out:

Originally posted by Gnodab:

most people ignore because smash smash weapon builds.

if I was selecting a barbarian heir, why would I choose hammer over labrys, when the only positives aren't really that positive and the negatives are significant?

also, while it is fair to compare the hammer against other weapons in the curio shop, fabled or not, it's also important to point out that this thread is about weapons that are worse than their base counterpart. so really, labrys is the only weapon you should be comparing the hammer to, because labrys is the hammer's base weapon. since OP is talking about how they didn't like the blunderbuss compared to the revolver, I don't think it's correct in this instance to talk about how much better the hammer is compared to, say, the umbrella (one of the only cases where I'd switch mid-game for the hammer lol).

edit: to be fair, I did call the hammer bad. poor wording on my part, sorry. I do think the hammer is "bad" in the sense that it has no identity, being just a piece of another weapon but nerfed. it is still a decent weapon to use, even if it's not one I'd ever take over the axe. it is worse than its base weapon, but by itself it's not exactly bad, other than its lack of identity

[Little Bunny Foo Foo]

The Hephaestus Hammer actually does have a special purpose though. The fact that it works automatically means that you don't need to focus so much on attacking. You just need to activate it once and get close to the boss from time to time. Well, Crow Staff can kinda do this too now so it isn't completely unique anymore. Plus, the Hammer is great with relics that benefit from a lot of attacks. Getting the Boxing Bell is amazing.

The Hammer definitely has a unique role in this game, it's just that not everyone is looking for a weapon to fill that role.

Also, there are two hammer weapons now. Hepaestus' Hammer and Mjolnir.

[Jarring]

Originally posted by Virgil:

Originally posted by Ridesdragons:

most of the fabled weapons have some drawback that makes them more difficult to get mileage out of compared to their base version, but iirc have better output when used optimally. the pizza, for example, is weird, but apparently one of the best weapons in the game, if you can use it right.

there are a few stinkers, though. the hammer is just the axe's weak aerial attack, but weaker and 24/7, the sock puppet gets .25 more strength to its damage modifier at the cost of losing out on 1.6 int mult, the umbrella is just really hard to actually use properly without killing yourself, and the ballista (my beloved) happens to be the community's most hated weapon due to locking you in place on the ground for a good 2 seconds just to attack.

I had a pretty interesting run recently with a hammer + Icarus wings combo on a barb, and it was pretty cool. I could somersault through the air indefinitely, which worked really well when stacking poison with the Stinger and some other stuff. It's definitely niche, which I think is intentional, but when it works, it's pretty cool.

I can't speak for any kind of super high level play though, I'm sure as people approach things like NG+15 and beyond the dynamics change quite a bit. I haven't gotten that far yet. I'm also fond of the Ballista.

The game actually gets easier the higher NG+ you go. At least, for me it was. I'm at ng +37, and I don't have to do multiple runs to beat all the bosses. Just takes 1 run to beat all the bosses. I'm already high enough level. It's not like I have to grind.

Also, I don't like ANY of the fabled weapons...personally. They can be good in certain situations, but that's the thing...they are situational. I need a weapon thats good in most situations...

[aegis3d]

The surfboard is hoooooorible. I think it would probably have some utility if it actually stayed on after you hit something (similar to the hammer/crow staff discussed), but you have to restart it every single hit. All the fabled weapons have their downsides but usually a small upside. The surfboard only really seems useful for the one scar minigame.

[Ridesdragons]

I actually quite like the surfboard. it's super strong. ridiculously strong, even. as the wiki even points out, its crits hit as hard as the ballista's crits (4.5xdex for ballista vs 4.2xdex for surfboard). and unlike the ballista, you get constant mobility while using it. really, the only part that sucks about the surfboard is the 4-measure looped jingle, which gets real old, real fast.

if you stayed on the surfboard after every hit, it'd be super OP. you're almost untouchable by melee while on the surfboard, only able to be hit from directly above you (your attack hitbox is huge), and you'd be constantly critting everything. getting knocked off after each hit is acceptable, and not hard to manage. the surfboard also makes you immune to certain hazards, namely the water, roots, and cursed shooters, along with practical immunity to delayed spikes. grab hermes boots and you can essentially ignore most hazards

[bzcharkl]

IMO Surfboard is pretty good for (most) bosses, but frustrating to use when you're just traversing and clearing out trash, somewhat similar to Pizza in that regard.

[Myno]

Originally posted by Ridesdragons:

the only part that sucks about the surfboard is the 4-measure looped jingle, which gets real old, real fast.

Indeed. Why did they not put in a toggle for the surf music? It's a super obvious thing. How can people who are smart enough to make this game be so, so stupid?

The mandatory surf loop, the way the teleport and save/quit system works, and there being only one version for each of the follow-the-pattern fairy chest "puzzles"; these are ugly blemishes on an otherwise great game.