My tiers for the different classes.

[PotaDOH]

God tier:
Barbarian: Hits like a truck, great defensive talent and aerial attack is super useful, tanky.
Fighter(barbarian secondary): Same as Barbarian, just trade a little DPS for more safety from spirits and to more easily shred enemy blocks.
Astromancer: Can just spawn in their black hole where they want it to hit the enemy and then run away to safety, literal best defensive talent and his attack is a good shield against spirits.
Assassin: Great DPS like the barbarian, just more focused on multi-hit which is a godsend against enemies with block, 2nd best defensive talent.
Chef: Cn reflect many projectiles and can heal 3 times mid-fight, enough said.
Waiter(chef secondary): Can still heal but now has a ranged attack at the cost of some damage and the ability to reflect, ok trade off.
Pirate: High knockback melee attack that hits fairly hard, has a ranged secondary which hits even harder, decent talent for the flight.

Good tier:
Valkyrie: Decent damage, ok defensive ability, being able to attack up and down is useful for enemies through floors and ceilings.
Dragon Lancer: Hits hard, great defense talent.
Duelist: Decent damage, good defense talent, fast attacks.
Ranger: Ranged attacks and useful talent.
Ronin: Hits hard, good defensive talent, good range for a melee class.

Bad tier:
Knight: Normal attack and stats are fine but garbage talent. Shield block is by far the hardest talent to use effectively and even when used perfectly it doesn't let you move while using it and can only block 1 attack so STILL not nearly as good as obscura and comet form.
Pizza Delivery(knight secondary): Same as knight, just slightly more versatile weapon.
Boxer: Ok damage and his talent is fine against normal enemies, has no real defensive capabilities which is terrible for a melee class.
Enkindled Boxer(boxer secondary): High damage and good range, but the self harm makes him useless in any small room or one with a lot of enemies, and even worse defensively as at least the normal boxer can punch spirits coming at them.
Ballistic Archer(ranger secondary): Can't attack in the air or while moving, super slow attack, still can't shoot through walls like the enemies can, so you basically just let the enemies hit you in exchange for a damage boost.
Reaper(mage secondary): Only better than normal mage due to wider attack arc and damage, still horrible defensively. Attack will shove you into enemies which is a huge problem if you don't have contact damage turned off.

Garbage tier:
Gunslinger: Short range for a supposed "ranged" class, being only a little longer than the ronins, awful damage to the point of being basically useless against any boss or in any room with a lot of enemies and no defensive walls. Talent explodes in a cross formation which make it hard to use defensively.
Bard: Just the notes alone deal garbage damage, you have to spin-kick them if you want to actually hurt something but that requires sticking around the same spot which is suicide against bosses and in any place with hazards above you like the clouds in sun tower. Talent is just a worse version of the barbarian shout.
Rock Star(bard secondary): Even worse than the Bard, you have to spin-kick to charge you're attack, and you hold ONE charge, and it doesn't even do a lot. Literally are forced to use spin-kicks as you're primary attack which by design have bad damage too.
Mage: I've been told that the mage has the best dps against bosses but that's not really useful is you're so squishy a boss can kill you in 2 or 3 hits. normal attack is hard to hit enemies with and unless they're in the epicenter of the blast it does terrible damage too.
Talent is just a randomized spell which still takes mana to charge unlike every other classes talents and it's random which means that they have no reliable defense either.

[MrGergoth]

Boxer is best choice against Pirates, Cain and Tubal because you always need move through them. I have no idea how's peoples killing *alternative* pirates on ng+ without boxer.

[PotaDOH]

Originally posted by MrGergoth:

Boxer is best choice against Pirates, Cain and Tubal because you always need move through them. I have no idea how's peoples killing *alternative* pirates on ng+ without boxer.

Use range attacks to stay away from the big skellies and focus the smaller skeletons when they spawn.
Also Assassin and Astromancer are best against Cain, those talents are a godsend against his walls of projectiles.

[Tanis016]

Knight's shield is great and it isn't that hard to use once you learn the timing plus you can block and dash to force a perfect block every time. It gives you i frames and destroy all projectiles in area around you.
Pizza is just a better knight, nice health, same defensive talent, more range and more damage.
Boxer has great health and his special destroy projectiles with only 3 hits cd. With the boxer you can keep hitting and spam special and block a constant barrage of projectiles.
Boxer's second class is a great bosser with high damage output and range he makes bosses super easily.
If you get waiter's spoon to bounce his damage output doubles the normal cook at least. It's only a damage trade off for things in the air in the middle of nowhere but those usually die from one spoon plus burn.
Bard's talent is much better than the barbarian's. You don't need to get hit to use it, so you can use it in every room. When stuff start killing you in 4 hits barbarian's talent isn't that reliable. Bard notes explosion also scales exclusively in intelligence, contrary to all other weapons in the game game that scale mostly on strength. If you are scaling intelligence they oneshot almost everything otherwise they feel like getting a piece of paper thrown at you.

[ZirzoR]

Yikes, the reasoning behind the classes being in the tiers they are is very misleading, I would assume someone that makes a tier list would actually be good at playing the classes themselves, but I guess I was wrong.

You're supposed to make the tier list with the "best" scenario in mind, which is that you locked the class yourself with the best spell to counter its "weakness" so for gunslinger for example, maybe use windwall if you think it doesn't cover enough. (It does, but ohh well)

But let's go through it shall we?

1: Knight Bad Tier: You are aware that shield block dashing is a thing right? It was literally shown on a speedrun of the game to be completely bonkers, knight is one of the best classes in the game because of this reason alone. (You block and instantly dash into an enemy, blocking and stunning the entire screen, removing any projectiles and making them all vulnerable to crits)

2: Gunslinger Garbage Tier: I will assume you dont know how to build your characters if you think gunslinger lacks damage, he's all about the last 8 bullets, stack crit and super crit, do full runs so you can get more relics and build him "light" so you have more resolve, gunslinger is a relic user, and his so called "weakness" can be mended easily with a spell, since he doesn't lack on mana regen at all.

You also say he lacks range, but he can shoot across half the screen already, so I beg to differ.

3: Mage Garbage Tier: Says that mage has one of the best DPS's in the game against bosses, yet calls him squish and that he dies fast, well dont get hit then? lol

Literally just build armor and get a relic or 2 to offset the squishyness, its not the classes fault you like to run glass cannon, armor is important. (You can off-set the random spell by locking a permanent one)

Reaper secondary: Just dont attack into enemies then? go above or below to hit them. oof.

a LOT of more questionable stuff in this list, I'm just gonna say its completely off, I suggest you learn how to play the game properly before making tier lists, but I dont have all day to type another paragraph on the questionable stuff in here, just no.

Clearly a skill issue if you put some stuff where it is, for that reason.

[DogFrog]

Agree with most of your list, except swap duelist and rogue because rogues range kinda sucks, their talents CD is too long, I feel duelist is literally just a better rogue. Also swap Pirate and Boxer, Pirate is just so slow and clunky while boxer can walk through bosses, and can instagib packed rooms with its talent. Lancer feels similar to me, just so clunky and slow.

LMAO at everyone thinking the bard and mage are garbage though, seriously I think my mage is LVL1. I find ranged classes much worse as the game goes on though, because staying still is a death sentence due to all the flying crap everywhere in the later areas.

[PotaDOH]

@ZirzoR
I did not know about shield dashing, so yeah after looking it up I agree that knight and Delivery are better than I thought.

[MrGergoth]

Originally posted by PotaDOH:

Originally posted by MrGergoth:

Boxer is best choice against Pirates, Cain and Tubal because you always need move through them. I have no idea how's peoples killing *alternative* pirates on ng+ without boxer.

Use range attacks to stay away from the big skellies and focus the smaller skeletons when they spawn.
Also Assassin and Astromancer are best against Cain, those talents are a godsend against his walls of projectiles.

If you pick them for talent, Wind Wall spell vs Cain can be alternative here - it still can defence you from projectiles and you can pick any class.

[tim.]

Originally posted by ZirzoR:

Yikes, the reasoning behind the classes being in the tiers they are is very misleading, I would assume someone that makes a tier list would actually be good at playing the classes themselves, but I guess I was wrong.

You're supposed to make the tier list with the "best" scenario in mind, which is that you locked the class yourself with the best spell to counter its "weakness" so for gunslinger for example, maybe use windwall if you think it doesn't cover enough. (It does, but ohh well)

But let's go through it shall we?

1: Knight Bad Tier: You are aware that shield block dashing is a thing right? It was literally shown on a speedrun of the game to be completely bonkers, knight is one of the best classes in the game because of this reason alone. (You block and instantly dash into an enemy, blocking and stunning the entire screen, removing any projectiles and making them all vulnerable to crits)

2: Gunslinger Garbage Tier: I will assume you dont know how to build your characters if you think gunslinger lacks damage, he's all about the last 8 bullets, stack crit and super crit, do full runs so you can get more relics and build him "light" so you have more resolve, gunslinger is a relic user, and his so called "weakness" can be mended easily with a spell, since he doesn't lack on mana regen at all.

You also say he lacks range, but he can shoot across half the screen already, so I beg to differ.

3: Mage Garbage Tier: Says that mage has one of the best DPS's in the game against bosses, yet calls him squish and that he dies fast, well dont get hit then? lol

Literally just build armor and get a relic or 2 to offset the squishyness, its not the classes fault you like to run glass cannon, armor is important. (You can off-set the random spell by locking a permanent one)

Reaper secondary: Just dont attack into enemies then? go above or below to hit them. oof.

a LOT of more questionable stuff in this list, I'm just gonna say its completely off, I suggest you learn how to play the game properly before making tier lists, but I dont have all day to type another paragraph on the questionable stuff in here, just no.

Clearly a skill issue if you put some stuff where it is, for that reason.

Why would you make a tier list based on best case scenario? I don't care about best case when I'm an average level player doing a normal run, I care more about moment to moment gameplay. Also, might be worth toning down the toxic rhetoric, it's hard to take you seriously when you just go straight to personal attacks. If you really think you have the right take just stick to the facts and figures instead of trying to put down OP with better-than-you language.

[Stanis23]

Yeah, 'just don't get hit' is a ridiculous statement just to make the class good.
Mage is too volatile, their weapon is janky and hard to aim / can not go upward or downward, their spells are also RNG and you need to be really good at dodging and weaving both at the same time to maximize the DPS.

In a 'white room' theory that you have the ideal spells and can perfectly execute the class it would deal a lot of damage yes, but not all players can afford such level of mechanics and most would just die in a few hits.

[ZirzoR]

Originally posted by Stanis23:

Yeah, 'just don't get hit' is a ridiculous statement just to make the class good.
Mage is too volatile, their weapon is janky and hard to aim / can not go upward or downward, their spells are also RNG and you need to be really good at dodging and weaving both at the same time to maximize the DPS.

In a 'white room' theory that you have the ideal spells and can perfectly execute the class it would deal a lot of damage yes, but not all players can afford such level of mechanics and most would just die in a few hits.

You're trying to make the assumption that tier lists are for casuals, dont.

Tier lists are made for the classes when performed at their "competent" level, if you make a tier list based on casual skill, then you have to make sure that everyone knows that, otherwise it looks really off. (Like this list)

Just like in any competetive or ranked type game, tiers are made with the assumption that you can play the thing being tiered in the first place.

Netdecking a hearthstone top tier deck and then losing with it and then putting in your own "Garbage tier" doesn't make it right, just as an example.

[tim.]

Originally posted by ZirzoR:

Originally posted by Stanis23:

Yeah, 'just don't get hit' is a ridiculous statement just to make the class good.
Mage is too volatile, their weapon is janky and hard to aim / can not go upward or downward, their spells are also RNG and you need to be really good at dodging and weaving both at the same time to maximize the DPS.

In a 'white room' theory that you have the ideal spells and can perfectly execute the class it would deal a lot of damage yes, but not all players can afford such level of mechanics and most would just die in a few hits.

You're trying to make the assumption that tier lists are for casuals, dont.

Tier lists are made for the classes when performed at their "competent" level, if you make a tier list based on casual skill, then you have to make sure that everyone knows that, otherwise it looks really off. (Like this list)

Just like in any competetive or ranked type game, tiers are made with the assumption that you can play the thing being tiered in the first place.

Netdecking a hearthstone top tier deck and then losing with it and then putting in your own "Garbage tier" doesn't make it right, just as an example.

Tierlists aren't always entirely fact based. You think Fast Food tierlists are based in some sort of objective reality? They're not. Tierlists can be based on facts and figures, or they can be based in opinion. OP never said they had the final say in what was or wasn't objectively best. Sure, they could have been more generous in saying this was all their opinion, but the point remains. Your counterarguments are totally fine and welcome, just don't be an ass about it.

[PotaDOH]

Originally posted by ZirzoR:

Originally posted by Stanis23:

Yeah, 'just don't get hit' is a ridiculous statement just to make the class good.
Mage is too volatile, their weapon is janky and hard to aim / can not go upward or downward, their spells are also RNG and you need to be really good at dodging and weaving both at the same time to maximize the DPS.

In a 'white room' theory that you have the ideal spells and can perfectly execute the class it would deal a lot of damage yes, but not all players can afford such level of mechanics and most would just die in a few hits.

You're trying to make the assumption that tier lists are for casuals, dont.

Tier lists are made for the classes when performed at their "competent" level, if you make a tier list based on casual skill, then you have to make sure that everyone knows that, otherwise it looks really off. (Like this list)

Just like in any competetive or ranked type game, tiers are made with the assumption that you can play the thing being tiered in the first place.

Netdecking a hearthstone top tier deck and then losing with it and then putting in your own "Garbage tier" doesn't make it right, just as an example.

Do you have a tier list for the classes? I'm genuinely curious how you rank them.

[Kisama]

Pirate is my favorite, by far. They hit so stupidly hard from range, with the combo, shots have big aoe and you can lob shots in (overpowered in every game ever).

[bzcharkl]

Personally, I'd take anything in your "garbage tier" over Hephaestus' Hammer, I don't see any redeeming features for that weapon.

[PotaDOH]

Originally posted by bzcharkl:

Personally, I'd take anything in your "garbage tier" over Hephaestus' Hammer, I don't see any redeeming features for that weapon.

Bruh what? It kills fast, and blocks anything that goes away when hit like black roots and spirit projectiles. I don't understand.