A feedback on str vs int

[thefollowingcharacters]

First of all, the game is outstanding. An improvement over RL1 in every way, and I loved the original. There is just one major problem that I think you as the devs are aware of as well, that didn't quite get fixed.

Leveling Str vs Int, and the contradiction to the core of a roguelike

A core value of roguelikes is variety. And you've knocked it out of the park with the class variety! So many fun classes to unlock, play, and try. But unfortunately, a glaring problem rears its head as you level...

Str vs. Int

Eventually you're going to need to invest in damage stats, and here comes the problem. It is more efficient, by far, to choose one stat and focus that if you want to beat the game effectively. This means the more you level up, the more you narrow the choices of classes you can viably pick for your run.

I see you tried to alleviate this a little by increasing the amount you heal as int goes up. Also having spin kick scale off of int. You tried to incentivise more than one reason to invest into int. Spells just aren't that good on non-int classes. The heal isn't as needed as much as the raw damage. Spin kick doesn't have to be leveled high at all.

This right here, is the last remaining flaw in an otherwise masterpiece of a sequel. This mechanic actively ruins and removes elements of your game that are core to a rogue-like.
I want to be clear, this is purely in the castle leveling. I feel gear is sparse enough, affordable enough, and different enough to keep as separate bonuses. But because the castle cost keeps scaling the more you invest, the further and further the other stat gets behind.

How do you fix this?

I am unsure myself. The system is pretty solidly set for leveling the castle. Maybe every two points of level increased strength results in also adding one int, and vice versa? It would incentivize spreading costs to both, while not leaving the other too far behind if a player forgoes the other dps stat. Same with the respective crit stats.

To avoid disrupting balance too much, perhaps the cost of strength, int, and the crit scores could be adjusted so that if you split evenly, its similar to investing in one for X number of levels.

I'm still unsure if this fixes the problem, or is just a band aid. But it is something that I seriously feel needs to be adjusted to ensure that I can have fun with all of the classes as I go through the game, without feeling like I'm gimping myself by spreading the stat spread, instead of focusing on one.

Thanks for reading!

[Gnodab]

Originally posted by thefollowingcharacters:

It is more efficient, by far, to choose one stat and focus that if you want to beat the game effectively. This means the more you level up, the more you narrow the choices of classes you can viably pick for your run.

The nature of manor inflation actually discourages this. The more you spend on Strength and Dex, the more expensive they become. At a certain point, you can purchase multiple points in Int for 1 point in Strength. This is the efficiency you believe is lacking. It's there, you just don't want to invest in Int because you think it's weak.

I've talked to players who built Int instead of Strength, because they liked Chef better than other classes, and Chef scales much better with Int than Strength. You're given the choice of building your manor around the classes you like, or just spreading out the stats evenly so you can play a variety of classes. For newer players, a few stat points seems like a big deal to them, and it is. But in the grander scope of the game, it's balanced much differently. You can do well building your Manor any way you want. I would know, because I built my Manor in a completely balanced way in NG+ and did just fine all the way to the cap.

The viewpoint that Int is weak is something adopted by just about every new player to the game, because they think Strength is just better, and it's a simple matter of investing in that first to beat the game. And that's true for newer players. But as you get more experienced at the game, you realize the balance is fine. You realize you've been ignoring your mana bar this whole time; a potent arsenal of spells completely unused, because you weren't ready to incorporate them into your play style.

By believing Int is weak, you only exacerbate the issue. You think spells are weak, so you don't invest in Int, which literally makes your spells weaker, so you continue investing in Str, and so you come to this "problem". But it's a self-created problem. Spells are not weak, and neither is Int.

[thefollowingcharacters]

Thank you for your reply. I was not intending to claim int or spells were weak. The problem I see is that you must invest in one stat primarily before the other to efficiently beat the game. This causes people to avoid certain classes, instead of being willing to pick most of them and enjoy them through the game.

For example, if I only invested in int and its crit stat, why would I pick a barbarian or valkyrie? I would avoid those, and primarily hunt for wizard, gunslinger, cook, or bard. In a rogue-like, do we want to narrow the viable choices for a player, or expand the viable choices for a player? That's the real question I'm posing. The game leads to a player investing in one aspect of the game at the detriment of the other, reducing the viable choices you can pick as you go through the castle.

[bkerns2]

Your main assumption that is false is that you think investing in one stat primarily before the other is the most efficient way to beat the game. This is not true. All classes benefit from both str and int. Knights should be using their spells and mages should be using their weapons. Also, the way manor costs work you can have more total stats if you spread your investments out evenly.

[thefollowingcharacters]

Originally posted by bkerns2:

Your main assumption that is false is that you think investing in one stat primarily before the other is the most efficient way to beat the game. This is not true. All classes benefit from both str and int. Knights should be using their spells and mages should be using their weapons. Also, the way manor costs work you can have more total stats if you spread your investments out evenly.

This also includes the crit increases. At my point in the game, being about level 50ish, it seems like I should be picking one stat, and picking its relevant crit stat first over the other. Then, I need armor, equipment allowance, and health. It just seems a wast to invest in the other stat at that point. So for quite a while, I will only be picking characters that primarily scale with that stat.

[Mrdamien]

After being up to date (NG +30, having every souls, every +9 items and runes.) I was thinking I would like to try some ideas that would be probably really bad but just for fun. I'm playing mostly physical archetypes, and I wanted to try to play some magical ones because it is just different. (An other way of playing, using other relics, equipments...).

I agree about STR and INT narrowing the classes you can play the more you play. But that also includes dexterity and focus, and physical and magical critical chances.

At first you will have to unlock pretty much every castle upgrade one time, then you may choose one way of playing.
Being more physical damage oriented, or magical. Investing egally in both may be the worst choice (maybe it is the best but I do think that is the worst choice the higher you will go).
I played for a long time so when I played I reached the caps in both, but for a new player that's not possible. He will probably earn and spend souls before that.

Then you earn souls, and you have to once again invest in stats. Maybe +1 in everything, then choosing something you like to upgrade.

Then you unlock cosmic overload and you understand you will not have everything. So again you have to select an archetype you will play. The same thing happens, investing egally in both may allow you to play every classes at the cost of weakening you overall. (And I suppose a lot of players will want to invest in more levels of equipment and runes. So that's already a lot of souls to spend.)
So you should choose between both. (Or even selecting a third real archetype: the "tank". You may choose to boost your defense (hp and armor) instead of one of the offenses stats.)

Anyways the choice you make is, for now, definitive. You just can't reset your souls shop yet.
And that could be the "mid-late game" way of allowing to change your archetypes, at the cost of some gold for example. Early game that would be not impactful (you don't have many souls to spend, so you only spend gold into your castle), but one way of thinking is that you want to maximize your castle in every ways possible.
Because even if you play an other archetype, one more point of intelligence, strength, vitality... may save your next run. And that's better to spend money otherwise Charon will be happy to take it for himself (and his family, he got a family to feed after all). And yes, giving money to charon will make you stronger but not as much as upgrading your manor.

Plus at a lower level you didnt invest into "too much" yet so you can still play every classes without being "too useless".
But, if that's a problem. The same way of correcting it could be allowing player to reset their castles against some gold. That may be the "early game" solution.

[Zombie]

Strength is just so much better than INT from my experience in every way. INT is an afterthought that you add to after you've maxed STR. Chef is one of my favorite classes due to how well-rounded it is in every way, and even barely adding anything into INT until just recently the sheer power of the standard normal attack completely outclasses any gimmicky ability you can get from spells.

I don't think speccing for spells is worth it at all, unlike a characters weapon they are randomly assigned to each class so even if you have absolutely maxed INT you may get a completely garbage spell. This is also not to mention spells like the 8-ball can easily circumvent low INT due to it's ricochet ability and be used as an extension of your melee weapon.

Classes that seem INT based are just as good at max STR. The Mage still gets great melee-weapon damage from STR rather than INT. The Chef, from my experience, is the exact same and once you unlock the wooden-spoon chef you can easily get critical hits on a constant basis to have DPS on par with the other melee classes while being able to do so at range on top of most boss fights becoming much easier.

Spells have a limited ammo count before you HAVE to use melee to refill the mana, and in my opinion the best spells are utility-based and serve another purpose rather than relying on INT for damage. Getting a fireball-type spell is more useful to cause a burn for the artifact that gives 20% extra damage to enemies with a status effect and the barrier spell is pretty much strictly defensive and doesn't need INT to be a great spell.

I would argue that INT is an absolutely worthless stat in the beginning of the game and is the runner-up to strength. It's what you get to finish your manor when you've bought all the other necessary things. Maybe this is because I play Dark Souls and have been conditioned to bash my head against a wall till I beat the enemy in front of me so I don't find any use out of the spells compared to simple melee but that's how I see it.

The spells themselves and the INT stat in general is just a bad investment, period. STR is king in this game.

[Vilks]

It's true for the early game, but when you go up into higher NGs, you can have a lot of rune weight. Speaking of that, what boosts your weapon damage? Str, Dex... and that's all? Now we head into spells: Int, Foc... Capacity rune, Siphon rune, Amplification rune.

Next, what is quickier to kill a huge amount of enemies: Knight's sword or Prismatic Spectrum? Next, do you need to get closer to enemies if you have Spore Burst, Fireball, or Searing Shot? You can kill annoying enemies from the distance so you don't need to get close to them.

What is better to quickly kill an enemy: Duelist with 1k non-crit, 2.8k crit damage wearing STR setup, or 8.4k crit damage from 8 ball wearing INT setup?
Playing STR setup Gunslinger you lose approximately 10% of your damage if you wear INT setup, but now your talent, your spells do as twice as much damage as before.

How much classes benefit from INT more than from STR? Mage, Chef, Gunslinger, Bard, Dragon Lancer if you charge a lot, Boxer if you use your talent a lot. Assassin can also be INT based because of immense mana restore from his base attacks (some type of semi-STR semi-INT).

I do agree that STR is a lot better than INT at the beginning of the game. So almost every feedback from lower lvl players states that INT is worse than STR, but high lvl players state a little bit different things: INT is as good as STR.

[fuchsohnehalstuch]

I think the cost inflation of manor skills incourages you to invest in both, strength and intelligence. Even if your prefer one stat over the other, when it is double the cost the other stat will get more interesting.

Later on this changes a bit though. Late game souls are your bottle neck, not gold. Souls cap at 300, you do not have this cost inflation like you have with gold. I already thought about neglacting strength and go all for intelligence as I think it does very well in late game for the same reasons Vilks stated. I will do worse with a few classes like the barbarian, but for most classes the intelligence/focus will benefit me more than strength/dexterity. So I can see the point OP is making.

If soul costs weren't capped but it in return bosses gave more souls on higher NG levels you could have the same inflation making putting points in the other attack stat more worth it. That would have other implications though, like devaluing souls from scars in the late game. I wouldn't mind that, just a possible counter argument.