Lore Speculation Thread (huge spoilers)

[Gnodab]

This thread contains my attempts over the past week to determine the crux of the game's story, as well as many other bits of lore. And it fits together pretty well.

I am not claiming 100% accuracy, but if you want to avoid potentially having the end of the game and its moral message spoiled for you, do not continue reading.

The Tree, the King, and Original Sin

There is a surface world, and an underworld. The Kingdom of Genesis – the game world we know - is the underworld. The World Tree/Tree of Eternal Life is an axis mundi, or axis of the world. Its branches reach the heavens, the trunk is on the surface world, and its Black Roots extend into the underworld. The roots are watered by the River Styx, which is continuously fed by the souls of the departed; these souls then return to the Tree and produce the Fruit of Life.

At least, that’s what is supposed to happen. But what the King has done is make it so the souls don’t return to the Tree; they return to him and prolong his life. As such, the task granted to his Estuaries to make the Fruit grow is a ruse. He sends his descendants down to the underworld for thousands of years to oppressively rule over a kingdom of non-Estuaries, who live lives of great suffering, only to die and prolong the King’s life. The Estuaries are part of the King and also cannot die, and thus the souls which return to the King also return to the Estuaries in part. But the souls have nowhere to go; that is why Elpis says that Estuaries tie souls into knots. The souls are unable to return to the Tree unless the Estuaries, and eventually the King himself, dies.

This is also supported by the issue of Mehujael’s Estuaries, having become Estuaries of an Estuary. The idea is that so many Estuaries have been created, that all souls that are not Estuaries are trapped in a purgatory, having returned to the King and his children to prolong their lives, but are unable to escape. Thus the Estuaries are all shadows of their former selves. From the game’s intro: “The time has passed and they(the souls) have not returned. The Estuaries have decayed. The Kingdom demands deliverance. Sign the contract, and your children will succeed you.”

So the question is, how did the King manage to cheat and divert souls to himself? I’m gonna speculate and say that happened by eating the Fruit itself. Immortality with a price, just like the first game. Much like Adam eating the Apple, the Fruit represents temptation. Eat the Fruit and you’ll live forever, but you’ll sacrifice your family in order to do so. Live honestly and your body will die, but your soul will return to the Tree in harmony with life.

Drawing from this, the crux of the story is exactly like the one from the first Rogue Legacy: a king who betrays his family in order to cheat death. The names of the Estuaries are all names of the descendants of Cain, with Cain being the King. The name Cain sounds like the Hebrew word for “to get”, or “acquired”.

Greek Gods, the Thread of Life, and Rebellion

The game also draws heavily from Greek mythology. There is Geras, the god of old age. Elpis, the spirit of hope. In game, Elpis talks of the Great Tapestry of the Morai(Moirai), or the 3 Fates. Their names being familiar: Clotho, Lachesis, and Atropos. Clotho, who spins the thread of life onto her spindle; Lachesis, who measures it; and Atropos, who cuts it short. All bearing the message that one’s life is fully accounted for, and whose duration is not to be cheated.

There’s also a theme of rebellion; attempting to overthrow an oppressive upper caste that profits off the suffering of those beneath them.

Tubal’s title is also from Greek mythology, being the Hecatoncheires, with the names of his miniboss minions being Cottus, Briareus, Aegaeon and Gyges. All names of 3 giants who helped Zeus and the Olympians overthrow the Titans. Tubal is also apparently supplying the Rebellion with equipment by displacing them using the Shift.

Tubal has tried to replace all labor with automatons, but was forbidden to do so. More speculation, but that’s probably because the automatons are powered by souls held within urns. If the automatons cannot die, the souls cannot return to the King.

The Stygian Waters and Worldly Seeking

There’s also the matter of Pishon Dry Lake. Formerly a lake, but the water level has dropped significantly, and rises with each Estuary you slay, with the souls returning to the River Styx. At the very bottom of the Lake is the entrance to the Nibiru Deep Mines, which was formerly a thriving community comprised of Mehujael and his crew. However, something happened, or rather an Estuary died, that poured many souls into the Styx resulting in the flooding of Nibiru.

So the question is, was there something down in Pishon and Nibiru that necessitated the lowering of the water level? I speculate by saying this is an analogy for worldly seeking. To trap souls in a purgatory, lower the level of the Styx to delve greedily into the mines for material gain. Create weapons, wage wars, acquire fame, wealth and power at a great spiritual cost.

Addendum

There’s still so much more.

There’s J and Z, finally revealed to be Estuaries Jabal and Zillah.
What’s behind the Golden Gates?
Who is the Nameless Knight?
Who is Lamech’s protege?
What are those jellyfish that show up when you fight Naamah and Enoch Prime?
Why are the Black Roots turning corpses into monsters?
Why do Void Beasts emerge from the Stygian Waters?
Why do all the Prime bosses use Void attacks?
Why are there Void mushooms in the Pishon Dry Lake?
What IS the Void?
What is Red Aether?
What are Curse projectiles?
What about the Shift, Anchors and the collective unconscious?
What ARE those orange portals everywhere?
And why are the fights with minibosses, Enoch and Irad entered via giant versions of those portals?
What is that boat(?) in Axis Mundi?
Enoch bound a soul to that eggplant, which means it’s guarding something.
Enoch and Naamah had a child, the product of 2 Estuaries.
And finally, just who is The Heir?

I still don’t have the full story, and there’s an insane amount of info so I’m not going to wear myself out on too much wild speculation. But this has been fun. Thanks for reading.

[Rhadamante]

Originally posted by Gnodab:

What are those jellyfish that show up when you fight Naamah and Enoch Prime?

I can at least answer that: there's no jellyfish, those are the flowers of the lilies of the valley (check the lore for their importance) a symbol of Naamah.
They used to only appear in her bossfight, but with the Prime versions, and the lore associated, it's easy to understand why Enoch also has them (also notice the ring he's wearing).

Originally posted by Gnodab:

What is that boat(?) in Axis Mundi?

This is most likely a bug with a prop on the wrong back/foreground layer. It appears like so at least.

[Gnodab]

Originally posted by Rhadamante:

I can at least answer that: there's no jellyfish, those are the flowers of the lilies of the valley (check the lore for their importance) a symbol of Naamah.
They used to only appear in her bossfight, but with the Prime versions, and the lore associated, it's easy to understand why Enoch also has them (also notice the ring he's wearing).

Ah yes, I did notice the ring on Enoch's hand. And thanks for clarifying about the Lilies, it makes sense.

This is most likely a bug with a prop on the wrong back/foreground layer. It appears like so at least.

Ahahaha oh man. Some people are saying they're Kraken tentacles, and I was thinking it was a submerged boat of some kind.

[Rhadamante]

Originally posted by Gnodab:

Ahahaha oh man. Some people are saying they're Kraken tentacles, and I was thinking it was a submerged boat of some kind.

I'm not 100% on that one. It just look that way to me.

[tolgen71]

On J and Z - Not sure they actually ARE Estuaries, for the simple reason I'm pretty sure that Z is Pizza Girl as well as Naamah's daughter. This is the reason for her weird Shift sense, and Miriam's rebellious streak is why she ended up leading the resistance (who better than the child of two Estuaries?). This is also why she goes by Pizza Girl - if she used her real name there's a chance someone would make a connection between her and Z of the resistance.

As for J, I'm fairly sure he's both the Nameless Knight and Lamech's Protege. This is part of why he didn't think the Resistance stood a chance and betrayed them in the end, because he knew first hand just how POWERFUL Lamech was. This goes a long way to explaining the Nameless Knight's attitude toward the various Estuaries.

[Rhadamante]

I've actually been saying Maria is Z for a long time, and I'm sticking to that theory. If I have to be proven wrong, at least I was consistent. :)
The way Nameless Knight stand silent next to Pizza Mundi support that he's J and she, Z, considering their relationship in the lore.
Another reason I think J is the Nameless Knight: he seems to know a ♥♥♥♥ ton about the Estuaries and the kingdom in general.

[Gnodab]

Originally posted by tolgen71:

On J and Z - Not sure they actually ARE Estuaries, for the simple reason I'm pretty sure that Z is Pizza Girl as well as Naamah's daughter. This is the reason for her weird Shift sense, and Miriam's rebellious streak is why she ended up leading the resistance (who better than the child of two Estuaries?). This is also why she goes by Pizza Girl - if she used her real name there's a chance someone would make a connection between her and Z of the resistance.

In Tubal's lore he specifically refers to them as Estuary Jabal and Estuary Zillah.

Zillah being Pizza Girl is too much of a stretch. However, it makes perfect sense that Pizza Girl is Naamah’s daughter.

- Her 'mother's' name was Miriam.
- She can sense Currents, and is very attuned to people's souls as opposed to what they look like.
- She's compassionate and kind, and knows the pizza preferences of every Estuary. Hardly the countenance of someone leading a rebellion, but certainly sounds like a child of 2 Estuaries.

As for J, I'm fairly sure he's both the Nameless Knight and Lamech's Protege. This is part of why he didn't think the Resistance stood a chance and betrayed them in the end, because he knew first hand just how POWERFUL Lamech was. This goes a long way to explaining the Nameless Knight's attitude toward the various Estuaries.

Here’s a curve ball…

Who says the Nameless Knight is male?
It’s an immediate assumption, but with that visor, we actually don’t know.
Zillah could be the Nameless Knight.
In fact, I’d be willing to bet on it. I can’t explain why though. Need more time to think on this.

I say Lamech’s protege is neither Jabal nor Zillah. In one of the Z lore entries, it mentions a new recruit, who said he trained under J, and that he was the best.

In Gregory’s memory, he says, “Lamech's protege is dangerous. He will soon surpass his teacher… That type of power cannot be trusted. Z got him onto our side, but J is still Citadel-born, still a master's lapdog. He turned once, he'll turn again.”

This is perhaps an unusual take, but what I get from this is that Jabal is also a student of Lamech, and the new recruit trained under Lamech and Jabal. The recruit is Lamech’s protege, but we don't know who he is yet. He’s also the one who eventually poisons Irad.

[tolgen71]

Originally posted by Gnodab:

In Tubal's lore he specifically refers to them as Estuary Jabal and Estuary Zillah.

Zillah being Pizza Girl is too much of a stretch. However, it makes perfect sense that Pizza Girl is Naamah’s daughter.

- Her 'mother's' name was Miriam.
- She can sense Currents, and is very attuned to people's souls as opposed to what they look like.
- She's compassionate and kind, and knows the pizza preferences of every Estuary. Hardly the countenance of someone leading a rebellion, but certainly sounds like a child of 2 Estuaries.

Just because Tubal SAYS they're Estuaries doesn't mean they ARE Estuaries. If we proceed on the basis that Z is Pizza Girl as well as Namaah and Enoch's daughter, it's not unreasonable that Tubal might mistake her for an Estuary. And if he's wrong about her, he might be wrong about the other. Especially if there's something strange about J too, such as him being your 'first ancestor' in the same way the Prince in RL1 was.

As for the Pizza Girl/Z question, her being kind and compassionate is hardly a disqualifier. Quite the opposite IMO. Z is an idealistic leader, so much so that she is in many ways naive, and I fully believe she doesn't realize how much death and destruction her little rebellion would cause. She was raised by Miriam to hold the ideal of freedom above everything else, and she probably saw an awful lot of suffering caused by all the problems without understanding the nuances of the situation. To quote Nameless "It took me a long time to realize everyone's an exception. Too long."

Here’s a curve ball…

Who says the Nameless Knight is male?
It’s an immediate assumption, but with that visor, we actually don’t know.
Zillah could be the Nameless Knight.
In fact, I’d be willing to bet on it. I can’t explain why though. Need more time to think on this.

J being the nameless knight is just the possibility that makes the most sense to me. It being Z is also a possibility. A third possibility is it being Miriam, Namaah's sister and Pizza Girl's mother.

I say Lamech’s protege is neither Jabal nor Zillah. In one of the Z lore entries, it mentions a new recruit, who said he trained under J, and that he was the best.

In Gregory’s memory, he says, “Lamech's protege is dangerous. He will soon surpass his teacher… That type of power cannot be trusted. Z got him onto our side, but J is still Citadel-born, still a master's lapdog. He turned once, he'll turn again.”

This is perhaps an unusual take, but what I get from this is that Jabal is also a student of Lamech, and the new recruit trained under Lamech and Jabal. The recruit is Lamech’s protege, but we don't know who he is yet. He’s also the one who eventually poisons Irad.

...you do realize you just proved they're the same person, right? Gregory is talking about a single person, identifying them alternately a Lamech's protege and as J. The other option is just too confusing. So he's suspicious of J but not Lamech's protege? And where was Lamech's Protege during the siege then? No, J being Lamech's Protege is the only way it makes any sense.

[Gnodab]

Noticed something else while unlocking Ladon’s chains.

You have 2 keys - one to suppress the power, and the other to suppress the will, or body and spirit. Onyx and pearl.

The onyx gate has a red portal, and the pearl gate has an orange one.

The challenge portals you find throughout the world are all red, the portals you take to fight the Study minibosses, Enoch and Irad are all orange. And all of them are surrounded by the Black Roots.

We know the Black Roots allow the mind/spirit to interact with different dimensions, and that the body can impossibly travel through whatever line an orange portal has drawn.

So where do you go when you go through a red portal as opposed to an orange one? Hard to say. But traveling to different Threads, or alternate versions of the game world in other dimensions is already an accepted part of the game. Traveling to different dimensions via these portals could have many implications.

[tolgen71]

Something I just noticed after rereading Enoch's Prime Lore node 1 - "He understood that one of an Estuaries primary duties was to keep the Legacy growing."

Note the capitalization. Meaning a proper noun... do we have an official name for our in game existence? I would say this also lends credence to the idea that when the Bell of Return was rung, we were summoned.

[Gnodab]

Originally posted by tolgen71:

Something I just noticed after rereading Enoch's Prime Lore node 1 - "He understood that one of an Estuaries primary duties was to keep the Legacy growing."

If we look at Naamah Prime's memory: "Extending the bloodline was an obligation every Estuary had to their King. Many children, many souls."

I take the Legacy to mean the King's ancestral line.

Note the capitalization. Meaning a proper noun... do we have an official name for our in game existence? I would say this also lends credence to the idea that when the Bell of Return was rung, we were summoned.

This ties into something I had rolling around in my head but didn't mention in the OP. The main character always has a large selection of offspring to continue the game with. We are neither Estuary nor mortal. The main character is part of a mysterious ancestral line (per Enoch's journal), and each child inherits the experience of its forebear by signing the contract of Hestia's Reliquary.

The Bell of Return summoning the main character... I think you're on to something here. In fact, if it's anything like the first game the final boss will be an ancestor of ours. So if we're part of the King's ancestral line, we seek to undo the mess created by the King. Using Hestia's Reliquary, we circumvent our soul going back to the King as it just gets inherited by whoever's next in line. We kill the Estuaries, open the Golden Doors, confront the King, and kill him. Paterphobia.

[Rhadamante]

The "we're heirs of the King" thing is something I also thought of, because of one of Nameless Knight's dialog:

"I know who you are, even if you don't.

... Let's see how far the apple falls from the tree."

It could just be a pun on the actual Tree of Life and the fact that the Hestia's Reliquary that we seemed to have used is made from the seed of its fruit...
...or it could mean he knows who we descend from.

[Gnodab]

That's what I got as well.

Which brings me to Nameless Knight's next line, "Everything in the name of duty, I suppose? Never stopped to think about what you might be losing..."

The Bell of Return summons us. Speaking of which, Bell of Return of what? Return of Souls? Ring the Bell of Return, the Heir shows up and frees all the souls trapped in the Estuaries. He does this in the "name of duty", as in he willingly gives up his own immortality that is linked to the King. That is what he is "losing". Or rather, he finds a new type of immortality though Hestia's Reliquary. He's not simply extending his own life, but extending his collective experience to the next person.

Just like the ending of the first game, in spite of all the centuries of arduous dungeon delving, the Heir returns home to a huge manor and a family. It seemed like a curse, but was a blessing in disguise.

[MadCrabPrime]

j is jabal and the reason irad went bonkers. also j is a ♥♥♥♥ cause he basically caused the current state of the kingdom

[Gnodab]

Actually, it's been confirmed J is not Jabal, just as Z is not Zillah, whose name has now been changed to Adah. J and Z corresponding with the Estuaries' initials was an unintended coincidence.

[MadCrabPrime]

Originally posted by Gnodab:

Actually, it's been confirmed J is not Jabal, just as Z is not Zillah, whose name has now been changed to Adah. J and Z corresponding with the Estuaries' initials was an unintended coincidence.

oh dang it, i thought i was smart