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Me - "TWCS + 16000m. Enough said then."
Some very odd responses by these chaps. Especially as I simply backed up what NARF already said. Like a gang LOL.
REPORTED.
Further to my point, my recommendation is the exact same as YOU & NARF. That's exactly how you do it.
Once again I fully understand your opinion on this. And I agree if you have the funds then dump it on a great setup. But based on how you answer these things it seems like you are the meticulous type. And not everyone is going to have the same experience as you. When it comes to anything new it is always a good approach to take it slow and not jump off the deep end. I would have been overwhelmed if I had the current setup I have now. Because it is not just the Setup in the Game you have to worry about. It is getting everything to work outright with calibration and everything. And I will give Virpil credit they have a good tutorial and they have done great updates to their software that now it isn't a surmountable task to get everything done even for a newbie.
The reason I tell people to go with something at the entry-level is because dumping money into a hobby that you don't know how it will be is something that I personally wouldn't want to go through.
Also with your guitar experience I have a dad that used to repair guitars. I have played things form beginner to expert level guitars. You can get great sound out of a cheap amp, guitar and a cheap petal. (I still remember my brother playing Sweet child of mine by guns and roses with a cheap fender frontman and some pedal I forget the brand he used he also got really into blues stuff and basked a bit. Think he made the cost of the amp in one night probably at most 2 hours out and he had this battery powered amp and that same pedal) That doesn't mean that getting a nice amp with a proper tuner and pedal and the works isn't what you want to work for. I hate that whoever told you to get a peevey because "that is what people do". I would have told you to get that entry level strat because at least you are getting something solid to start then bump up to and even better strat. And as a trumpet player I personally say get some pawn shop trumpet no reason to jump into the deep end when you can wade water but if someone told me they want a Yamaha then I tell them get that $900 then later get that pro $3600 after a while and you know your trumpet well.
I have played Flight sims with a T.Flight yeah it doesn't have all the bells and whistles but I can pitch roll move the throttle get the plane in the air. And I can use the keyboard for everything else. Got really good at Elite dangerous with it. If I am just trying to get into this why overwhelm yourself with 20+ controls and spending hours trying to fix your setup the way you want. And I am going to put this out there that is my favorite part. What am I going to program this for what am I going to make that knob do. What is that switch going to do. Sometimes I do 20 test flight just to see if I missed something. But starting out I would not have done that.
I also have done troubleshooting and I know if someone jumps into something too fast it can ruin the whole experience and I want people to have the best first experience. And $40 is a drop in the bucket once you dive in and get the $700+ setup in the future. At least flight sim setups have that super cheap option. And we are not talking driving setups where it is absolutely stupid to do an entry level setup. I just want people to have the best overall experience from the get go. I am not saying T.Flight forever I am saying dip your toes in. And all you have to do is buy a T.Flight do a couple of tests see if it is what you want. Pack it back up and ship/take it back and get your money back for it. Then dump the money you want to spend and get that better setup. Definitely now that amazon will take pretty much anything back for any reason.
In the end I agree I wish I would have upgraded sooner (from a T16000m) but I did not go the level by level like a lot of people I did entry first got my feel for it then went Virpil. I am not a fan of try out every setup until you find what is right I just believe in the set expectations. And not to frustrate yourself with nonsense that doesn't matter. Its like taking your first real world flight. They are not just going to throw you in the deep end and hope you make it. They first test you out make sure you understand the basics. Then once you got those down then that landing. I wouldn't take a rookie and be like land your plane when that is the first thing you do you are going to panic and we know how that would go.
As a small critique though I wouldn't suggest T16000m fcs just because of the Throttle. I really don't like the throttle on rails.(mind you I used it for 6 years) Just from my experience it is really hard to fine tune your speed with that. In games that you don't have trim it is not fun trying to move the throttle a tiny bit only to jump it. Now I used that thing a lot so maybe it was just me slowing wearing it but it just didn't feel good after a while. I really like lever throttles because you get that fine tuning. So for me I personally like the overall feel of the T.Flight throttle over the T16000m but that might just be me. Now that there is that T16000m rebranded Yeah I guess it is called the TCA airbus then upgrade the grip afterward with something from VKB or Virpil. To me this is a better suggestion then the T16000 at this point and the Airbus throttle is more versatile. And I am going to say the VKB throttle that they just release is a good throttle and versatile so I personally believe you are shortchanging it a bit. Yeah it technically isn't a split throttle but it has two throttle levers and a flaps lever it would be great for most flight sims and has plenty of buttons. I personally would lean more toward the Virpil throttle but it is an option and should be considered depending on use case.
Also, I loved your methodology with how you laid it out. I really don't want you to take this as I am saying you are wrong. I just have a difference in opinion when it comes to starting out. I have a perfectly fine experience with my T.Flight I used it 4 years before I got the T16000M. Yeah it was great getting those other buttons but in the end of the day a Flight stick is a flight stick. (and before someone grills me yes I know once you get into enthusiast grade sticks and you have bases that you can adjust the tension you can really get the feel you want with your stick) If it can pitch and roll your craft it is doing the job it is supposed to do. Will you get a better experience putting the money in and getting those extra features absolutely but should you do it not always. Let me add an example. I like Ace Combat it is one of my favorite games. I currently play it with my Virpil setup. I love the experience.(and virpil is overkill by a country mile) That doesn't mean that when I played it with my T.Flight that I had to dig out of my closet when AC7 first released gave me a subpar experience. I still enjoyed playing it. When I found out that they finally added support(if you call editing a text file support) for my Virpil setup I was happy. Took me an hour or so to get it going and I was good to go. For me it is sometimes nice to have that T.Flight just because it is the stick that will almost always have support when things first release. So if for only that I say get one just so you have it.
And I agree with you on the controls setup thing I don't think it is hard it can be a little daunting at first when you see how many controls you can bind and trying to figure out ones you need and ones that are nice to have. But if this is your first time it is different. Think back to you first learning the guitar. What do you think is better learning a few notes/chords then learning a tune that you can get strumming down or someone throwing the whole chord book at you and saying have at it. Which experience do you think more people are going to have a better experience with. Yes learning how to bind is essential to get the most out of a flight sim but I first want to move the plane around and make sure I understand the controls then tweak until I like it. Sometimes simple is better. Once again that is my opinion.
One final note I personally don't care about the Term "Bang for your Buck" because if that is what you are going for then T.Flight $40 and you have a HOTAS. I know the OP said BFYB but even in your own comment you said that phrase really doesn't mean anything when you are talking peripherals in this context. Because when it comes to HOTAS it is more about what feature level do you want. When you really look at it the only thing you get with a enthusiast stick is more costomizable buttons on the actual controller. If someone is fine with keyboard for most controls then all you really need is that baseline controller if your concern is BFYB.
The Mongoose throttle alone is 350€. The grips are between 160 and 250€. And a base to attach the grip to is another 180 to 320€. Rudder, between 200 and 350€. And that is all without taxes, potential tolls, and shipping.
Meanwhile, the entire set of the T.16000, rudder and TWCS throttle costs 190€, just the grip and throttle even just 110€. And while it is made mostly of cheap plastic, it's still plenty sturdy enough to withstand many years of normal usage.
"A bit more" is entirely ridiculous to use in this comparison. Again, not a dig against Virpil, but don't pretend that you don't have to pay a premium for the quality they deliver. Meanwhile I'd argue that the increase in functionality is certainly there, but not as massive as you make it sound, and the build quality is mostly inconsequentially better and more of a mental thing than anything.
Especially for a beginner who is getting their first whiff at the hardware and the sim I'd question if buying stuff that is very expensive is the best idea. Who knows if they will even stay into it for the long term? For an initial feel, beginner hardware is plenty enough - not the worst crap, of course, but also not 800€ worth of stuff.
It's basically a MUST to screw it open and apply some dry lubricant to the rails, or they'll be exactly as sticky and imprecise as you describe.
This is the "BEST BANG-FOR-BUCK" and a no-brainer "for newbies" as OP asked about... Nothing else is worth the effort. Get it and enjoy. Even MAKI uses this Upgrade...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXqHUsm0cho&t=261s&ab_channel=CoreHawk3D
The point is that these are CHEAP AS HELL as a pack... £109.99 INC VAT
https://www.box.co.uk/Thrustmaster-T.16000M-FCS-Hotas_2079484.html
Invoice bottom line, of course it does amount to a lot. I'm a fan of buy once cry once, and if a person has a dozen expensive aircraft the cost of hardware seems less significant if it means that you get that much enjoyment out of your investment.
I do not suggest that someone testing the waters in flight simming should stay away from Thrustmaster, just that at the low end you certainly get less "bang" then in the middle or upper end. The "for the buck" part is pretty subjective, to me you don't get much when you pay for a T16000, so VKB or Virpil might indeed be more Bang/Buck.
We've gotten off on tangents, I think I missed any hint from OP regarding budgets or his expectations of how much he will play, and @startrekmike pretty much covered it in his first post, which the OP has indicated answered his question.
@Macman is a committed contrarian and argues endlessly that the free aircraft are the best aircraft in DCS. He just loves to stir the pot, which I find entertaining, but it does leave him making statements significantly more difficult to support (T16000 is the one stop) than mine about the increment from TM to Virpil (or particularly VKB) being "just a bit more."
All in good fun
Edit re budget, a person was recently asking for wheel and pedal suggestions for ETS2, and said he had a budget of $10000. Assuming that he had either decimal point or zero problems, most suggestions centered on what he could get for a thousand. He eventually clarified that he really did mean 10G
Ya' never know until you do.
The big area I am going to have to disagree with you on is the notion that build quality is "inconsequentially better and more of a mental thing than anything".
To be clear. If we were only (and I do mean only) talking about the materials and construction of the basic structure of a given stick and throttle (the general make-up of the grip or base's shell), I would agree with you. Those that cite a a grip feeling "too plasticky" are not really saying much of anything at all since it is rare to break the plastic grip or base of even the most inexpensive entry level joystick. There are obviously advantages to getting a high-end metal or even a high-end plastic grip/base (not the internal components, just the shell) but in the consumer flight sim scene, those advantages are not going to come into play.
The big part where we disagree is when it comes to internal components and mechanical design. To give you a few examples.
1.) When I used the Saitek (not Logitech) X-45, X-52, and then the X56, they all had rotary controls of some kind that would always jitter. The usual reply when one asks about said jitter on forums is "they need to be cleaned and they will work perfectly" or "The rotary is broken and you need to either replace it or replace the entire unit". These are both wrong. The reality is that Saitek (and later Logitech) used components with a relatively low number of "positions" and if you turned the rotary just past one of those positions (that you have no way of feeling), it would jitter and spike towards the closest active position on the rotary. This is not a issue on more expensive setups and even when you do encounter the occasional axis control that might exhibit such behavior, it is usually to a significantly lesser degree.
Saitek/Logitech use REALLY cheap electronic components (one need only open one up and look to see this) and that makes them more likely to fail and less accurate even if they don't break down.
2.) The Thrustmaster Warthog is a excellent example of what I am talking about. One of the Warhog's most famous features also turned out to be one of its largest problems. When Thrustmaster designed the Warthog, they put a lot of effort and money into the overall presentation with its heavyweight metal outer construction and it certainly does give off a strong first impression but the metal they used to construct the outside really should have been used to construct the internal stick axis mechanism. One doesn't need to go very far to find examples of Warthog sticks with broken internal mechanisms because they built them out of plastic. When you put all the weight and pressure of metal components on a rather flimsy plastic internal mechanism, it is going to break down and when it does, there isn't much you can do to save it.
This happened to my Warthog. I loved mine. When I read that other people were having problems I just assumed they were abusing them and that it would never happen to me. I was VERY gentle while my setup and even then, the stick's internal mechanism still broken and there wasn't really any way for me to fix it due to the design.
It is important to note that while the Warthog was (and still is) not exactly cheap, it was still built with a very old-school joystick making mindset where plastic internal mechanisms were pretty much the norm. I can't really say I blame Thrustmaster on this because it does work well right up until the point where it breaks. Now we are in a time where we have even higher-end setups from WinWing, VKB, and Virpil that all use heavy, all-metal internal mechanisms that are FAR less likely to break down while also being MUCH more accurate overall.
Those are not imagined quality benefits. Obviously not everyone needs to buy the most expensive thing but in the case of flight sim peripherals, the uncomfortable, unforgiving truth is that you very much get what you pay for and sometimes the higher-end stuff is higher-end for a reason.
The Logitechs (at least the newer generation - I had an old Saitek X45 from before the company got taken over which was nigh indestructible) are famous for being low quality, and the Warthog is known amongst enthusiasts to be overpriced crap for its asking price which they weighted down artificially to make it seem worth its price because everyone "knows" more weight equals more quality.
The T.16000 has, despite looking and feeling cheap, far less quality issues as far as I am aware - the only consistent complaint is the sticky throttle and that is easily rectified with some dry lube and a screwdriver.
Please remind yourself that we're not talking about a recommendation for seasoned enthusiasts here, we're talking about someone who's buying his very first set. If money doesn't matter then sure, I say buy the full Virpil set. But for most people who are only dipping their toes in money actually does matter, and then if they find out it actually isn't for them they'd rather regret a 110€ purchase than a 900€ purchase. The former I can sell on for 80€ and only lost 30€, the latter I can sell on for 600€ and lost 300€.
I brought up those examples specifically to tackle the notion that the quality jump of high end stuff is "inconsequentially better and more of a mental thing than anything". I wasn't talking specifically about any one setup but instead tackling the idea as a whole and used examples as to where I am coming from on that.
Lastly. I understand that the OP is not a seasoned enthusiast but at the same time, I also don't really buy into the notion that a beginner must always go for the cheapest thing possible. That is why my suggestions are always tailored around the stated budget of the person asking and in this case, budget was specifically specified as not being a major factor. That the OP wanted "the best bang for the buck" and in my experience, "the best bang for the buck" is often not the cheapest thing but also often not the most expensive.
Didn't expect this thread to turn into a civil war, but I digress.
The reason I said that is because I had little to no knowledge about the HOTAS market, and didn't mind hearing all the available options. I have only just recently returned to flying in Arma 3 (KOTH, Antistasi, Invade and Annex, etc.) with hundreds of hours sinked each gamemode, but learned that I seemed to quickly lose interest from my inability to master difficult flight maneuver (one of them in KOTH called hot-landings), and even basic flying can get a bit dull and boring.
Just a quick Google search showed me a lot of great options to choose from, but at quite steep prices. The Thrustmaster T16000M FCS Flight Pack for example includes all three items (Joystick, Throttle, Pedals) at a discount for $299 CAD, just slightly below the Logitech G X56's $329 CAD price (With only the Joystick and Throttle). However the T16000M's build quality, limited features (compared with other products) and lifespan is its weakest point according to 4 star/2 star reviews on Amazon (out of 812 global ratings, with an average of 4.5 out of 5). And like Startrekmike pointed out, planning to upgrade in the future might be a reason to avoid the T16000M in the first place.
So why leave Pedals for a later Upgrade? Well the Thrustmaster's in that Flight Pack are not great an nor are SAITEK. There are far better quality ones for your feet to bash but at a far greater price.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9o_0tVQwmw&ab_channel=AlmedinFilms
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUtSR6Ytw0I&ab_channel=GrimReapers
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6mukkJR0mg&ab_channel=JordanKing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4tV97eKLyk&ab_channel=RobSogomonian
I hope you see this makes the best start to where you end up.
https://www.reddit.com/r/hotas/comments/l7gcql/considering_your_first_hotas_more_comprehensive/
Take a read of it, I think it's pretty comprehensive and reasonable.