Vref speed on finals - question

[cj2305]

How many miles out of the runway should you be at full flaps and at your VREF speed? Should I join the ILS at my VREF or should I be starting to slow down as soon as I hit the ILS? I am flying the PMDG 737-800 BTW.
Thanks

[★Macman★]

Following indeed because there are likely many differing answers on this especially for Commercial due to the majority of Real Pilots here are GA to tell us. Then when we see YouTube for Real Pilots in Commercial, including 737-Driver Emanuel, they simply are testing the Game and so rush many aspects especially Landings.
We even see on the MSFS adverts Landing Gear in GA dropped at the last second which is a no no.

You could do as you like I'd say but aim for VAPP by Touch Down to consider losing speed added for Winds by Flaring.

In 737 I add Flap 1 on Approach for control at low Altitude but the thing being ATC are often too late with correct Callouts to be ready and we can not see the VNAV BUG when we must need VS to dial in lower Alts fast to catch up. Remember Emanuel says dropping the Gear is good as a Brake but it should be lowered under 165kts. Then we must have no overspeed for the GS Capture and that the gamey part here. I also like to only use more Flaps only to Capture GS but then add Gear at 5nm and leave 1 or 2 Flaps as is the required conditions (calculated on the EFB now) to drop last position needed around 3nm.

So in my case I allow for the gamey mishaps plus allow for the added Winds (at least +5kts and up to 10kts Max in any Direction) or AP can go OFF by too slow on Finals. So therefore anything between 165kts down to 130kts and play with Flaps to be completed just following Gear.

Another note is to be achieving actual Speed and not what you have your Speed set for as there is a difference. So long as you aim to rub off that speed above VREF by your Flair so it does not hit too hard is the aim and consider added Wind Compensation on top, never under even with a Tail Wind.

Thing many will have different views but this is for heavy Commercial and this has the gamey part to consider on top.

[cj2305]

Originally posted by ★Macman★:

Following indeed because there are likely many differing answers on this especially for Commercial due to the majority of Real Pilots here are GA to tell us. Then when we see YouTube for Real Pilots in Commercial, including 737-Driver Emanuel, they simply are testing the Game and so rush many aspects especially Landings.
We even see on the MSFS adverts Landing Gear in GA dropped at the last second which is a no no.

You could do as you like I'd say but aim for VAPP by Touch Down to consider losing speed added for Winds by Flaring.

In 737 I add Flap 1 on Approach for control at low Altitude but the thing being ATC are often too late with correct Callouts to be ready and we can not see the VNAV BUG when we must need VS to dial in lower Alts fast to catch up. Remember Emanuel says dropping the Gear is good as a Brake but it should be lowered under 165kts. Then we must have no overspeed for the GS Capture and that the gamey part here. I also like to only use more Flaps only to Capture GS but then add Gear at 5nm and leave 1 or 2 Flaps as is the required conditions (calculated on the EFB now) to drop last position needed around 3nm.

So in my case I allow for the gamey mishaps plus allow for the added Winds (at least +5kts and up to 10kts Max in any Direction) or AP can go OFF by too slow on Finals. So therefore anything between 165kts down to 130kts and play with Flaps to be completed just following Gear.

Another note is to be achieving actual Speed and not what you have your Speed set for as there is a difference. So long as you aim to rub off that speed above VREF by your Flair so it does not hit too hard is the aim and consider added Wind Compensation on top, never under even with a Tail Wind.

Thing many will have different views but this is for heavy Commercial and this has the gamey part to consider on top.

Thanks for your reply. I have a few other questions...

Can you go flaps up before you establish on the ILS/GS?
How close to the runway am I allowed to go full flaps? What I mean by that is how close can I get to the runway without full flaps?
Should I be at my VREF speed 5NM out, 7NM etc out of the runway?
When should I be fully stable for the approach? As soon as I establish on the ILS/GS or 5NM, 7NM etc out of the runway?
Can I apply speed brakes on finals if I am going to fast or should I go around, or is there another method I should use?

Thanks again!

[★Macman★]

I'm following in case you get a Commercial Pilot have a say but very doubt you will. I say this being different both for GA size and Passenger Count but strict Airline Protocol which each vary that I heard about. Not only that but the gamey aspect alters all of this by the time you get there.

Speed Brakes are used for your Descent from Cruise and can also be used in FULL for when needed in an Expedited Descent (A320 has that mode to set rapid rate). In boeing we would need VS for that to override VNAV but we will not see VNAV ARROW BUG which is just mad.

You can decide your Landing to be FULL 40 or Flaps 30 due to conditions and also Airport Procs by their Charts. Some have steep descents and some have old ILS only for initial guidance these also have the 3 CAT levels for full AP Landings for poor visibility.

I suggest as I said for now until you get a Commercial Pilot say other. Drop Gear at 5nm but by that time you already have some Flaps to get you from 165kts for Gear and then add what is needed by the time for remainder say by 3nm to be fully configured by then and so you will be losing speed all the way from say 165kts 5nm out down to your VAPP which you must also have Wind Compensation on top ready to Flare for Touchdown to meet that VAPP. i.e. I would not consider VAPP is your speed for all the way from time of lowering Gear but must drop off to meet Touchdown by your Flair also which kills 10kts itself.

Even as said watching Emanuel real 737 Pilot in game, he rushes many Landings just to get it done and these are all gamey too. Do not worry about this. It is not gonna get you your Pilot Licence.

[ZombieHunter]

VREF should be by FAF on IFR or 4 nm out. Before that most ATC will have you keep speed up to ease congestion and provide adequate spacing.

For VFR or visual approach you should be established at least 1 nm out. Large commercial aircraft are always on IFR so this does not apply. But for GA ideally 1 nm out or earlier if need be. You want to stay ahead of the airplane at all times. In the 172 I'm at approach speed on final. I can be at 110 knots and then pull the throttle hold the nose up and she will slow down fast and then I can drop 10 degree of flaps and get into my final approach configuration from there. I've had ATC expedite me to the numbers and that means keeping speed up all the way in and then on final, slow it down, configure and land it. The faster your aircraft is, the more time you should give yourself. Then don't dawdle on the runway. Roll it out and slow down when you need to turn. The less time you spend on the active, the better.

[★Macman★]

You will notice why we have so few Commercial Real Pilots to tell us...

1. They are not as Public at it to play a SIM but some do YouTube Channels for all real life Pilots stuff e.g. DutchPilotGirl, 74 Gear, Mentour Pilot, Pilot Blog, & A330 Driver etc. whom you might want to ask in comments on their Channels but will be specific to their Airline Protocol as is using Flaps 40 or 30 for efficient fuel.

2. Some Airliners keep their actual VAPP TOP SECRET even from MSFS/ASOBO (fact) as this is too much data in the Public Knowledge.

3. Different Pilot Experience as one whom had came from ATR Training into A320 totally missed the Runway by arriving too soon.

4. They are protecting their jobs and also security.

5. Commercial Pilots are not gonna spend their hard earned money on here to tell us their TOP SECRETS. They are going around all the Bars telling the ladies they are PILOTS

6. Most SIMMERS think Commercial is DULL and do not fly them.

VAPP is now already Calculated for us in the EFB but you must Compensate for WIND to not fall too soon or lose AP.
Here's an old Tutorial for VAPP & FLAPS but you need more than just this one remembering it is also GAMEY so beware.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsqkKCvS4Yc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFHBAoIOQ40
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPIrVMqd5zI&t=617s

[Witcher]

I fly the Horizon Sim Boeing 787-9, and extend to full flaps 4NM out and reduce to Approach Ref speed at 1NM.

[cj2305]

Originally posted by Witcher:

I fly the Horizon Sim Boeing 787-9, and extend to full flaps 4NM out and reduce to Approach Ref speed at 1NM.

Perfect! Thanks very much, I will try this on my next flight.

[cj2305]

Originally posted by ★Macman★:

I'm following in case you get a Commercial Pilot have a say but very doubt you will. I say this being different both for GA size and Passenger Count but strict Airline Protocol which each vary that I heard about. Not only that but the gamey aspect alters all of this by the time you get there.

Speed Brakes are used for your Descent from Cruise and can also be used in FULL for when needed in an Expedited Descent (A320 has that mode to set rapid rate). In boeing we would need VS for that to override VNAV but we will not see VNAV ARROW BUG which is just mad.

You can decide your Landing to be FULL 40 or Flaps 30 due to conditions and also Airport Procs by their Charts. Some have steep descents and some have old ILS only for initial guidance these also have the 3 CAT levels for full AP Landings for poor visibility.

I suggest as I said for now until you get a Commercial Pilot say other. Drop Gear at 5nm but by that time you already have some Flaps to get you from 165kts for Gear and then add what is needed by the time for remainder say by 3nm to be fully configured by then and so you will be losing speed all the way from say 165kts 5nm out down to your VAPP which you must also have Wind Compensation on top ready to Flare for Touchdown to meet that VAPP. i.e. I would not consider VAPP is your speed for all the way from time of lowering Gear but must drop off to meet Touchdown by your Flair also which kills 10kts itself.

Even as said watching Emanuel real 737 Pilot in game, he rushes many Landings just to get it done and these are all gamey too. Do not worry about this. It is not gonna get you your Pilot Licence.

Me too, I am very doubtful a commercial pilot but no worries as I only want a bit of guidence. No comercial pilot is required.

If I wanted to manually guide the plane to the start of the final approach using HDG SEL and V/S can I turn off both VNAV and LNAV or is that not a protocol used in real life?

Correct me if i'm wrong but...
Gear down at 5NM for initial drag
5NM start slowing down to VREF
3NM full Flaps
3NM Fully configured
2NM Landing checklist complete

I have been watching some A330 Driver videos, they are pretty good although he could explain some more things. What do you mean by he rushes many landings to get it all done?

[cj2305]

Originally posted by ZombieHunter:

VREF should be by FAF on IFR or 4 nm out. Before that most ATC will have you keep speed up to ease congestion and provide adequate spacing.

For VFR or visual approach you should be established at least 1 nm out. Large commercial aircraft are always on IFR so this does not apply. But for GA ideally 1 nm out or earlier if need be. You want to stay ahead of the airplane at all times. In the 172 I'm at approach speed on final. I can be at 110 knots and then pull the throttle hold the nose up and she will slow down fast and then I can drop 10 degree of flaps and get into my final approach configuration from there. I've had ATC expedite me to the numbers and that means keeping speed up all the way in and then on final, slow it down, configure and land it. The faster your aircraft is, the more time you should give yourself. Then don't dawdle on the runway. Roll it out and slow down when you need to turn. The less time you spend on the active, the better.

Whats FAF? So what your saying is that I need to be at my VREF speed 4NM out and full flaps out? When should I be fully configured for landing?

Also, as I said before I am not flying GA I am flying the PMDG 737-800 so the rules will be different.

[Witcher]

Originally posted by conorferdyjackson:

Whats FAF? So what your saying is that I need to be at my VREF speed 4NM out and full flaps out? When should I be fully configured for landing?

Also, as I said before I am not flying GA I am flying the PMDG 737-800 so the rules will be different.

FAF sounds like a waypoint or STAR. If you are flying PMDG, it should come with a quick start guide for takeoff and ILS land.

[ZombieHunter]

Originally posted by ★Macman★:

You will notice why we have so few Commercial Real Pilots to tell us...

1. They are not as Public at it to play a SIM but some do YouTube Channels for all real life Pilots stuff e.g. DutchPilotGirl, 74 Gear, Mentour Pilot, Pilot Blog, & A330 Driver etc. whom you might want to ask in comments on their Channels but will be specific to their Airline Protocol as is using Flaps 40 or 30 for efficient fuel.

2. Some Airliners keep their actual VAPP TOP SECRET even from MSFS/ASOBO (fact) as this is too much data in the Public Knowledge.

3. Different Pilot Experience as one whom had came from ATR Training into A320 totally missed the Runway by arriving too soon.

4. They are protecting their jobs and also security.

5. Commercial Pilots are not gonna spend their hard earned money on here to tell us their TOP SECRETS. They are going around all the Bars telling the ladies they are PILOTS

6. Most SIMMERS think Commercial is DULL and do not fly them.

VAPP is now already Calculated for us in the EFB but you must Compensate for WIND to not fall too soon or lose AP.
Here's an old Tutorial for VAPP & FLAPS but you need more than just this one remembering it is also GAMEY so beware.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsqkKCvS4Yc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFHBAoIOQ40
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPIrVMqd5zI&t=617s

VREF is not top secret by any means. They are widely known, published and are available for aircraft in their POHs. VREF will change with weight and balance. Usually modern avionics will calculate VREF for you if the W&B is entered correctly. There is no reason to hide VREF and it certainly is not a matter of job security. Anyone can know VREF but that does not mean they can fly the plane. Not by a long shot. It is absurd to suggest such things and completely disconnected from reality.

FAF is final approach fix BTW. By FAF you should be at VREF.

[cj2305]

Originally posted by Witcher:

Originally posted by conorferdyjackson:

Whats FAF? So what your saying is that I need to be at my VREF speed 4NM out and full flaps out? When should I be fully configured for landing?

Also, as I said before I am not flying GA I am flying the PMDG 737-800 so the rules will be different.

FAF sounds like a waypoint or STAR. If you are flying PMDG, it should come with a quick start guide for takeoff and ILS land.

It’s Final Approach Fix but thanks anyway.

[cj2305]

Originally posted by ZombieHunter:

Originally posted by ★Macman★:

You will notice why we have so few Commercial Real Pilots to tell us...

1. They are not as Public at it to play a SIM but some do YouTube Channels for all real life Pilots stuff e.g. DutchPilotGirl, 74 Gear, Mentour Pilot, Pilot Blog, & A330 Driver etc. whom you might want to ask in comments on their Channels but will be specific to their Airline Protocol as is using Flaps 40 or 30 for efficient fuel.

2. Some Airliners keep their actual VAPP TOP SECRET even from MSFS/ASOBO (fact) as this is too much data in the Public Knowledge.

3. Different Pilot Experience as one whom had came from ATR Training into A320 totally missed the Runway by arriving too soon.

4. They are protecting their jobs and also security.

5. Commercial Pilots are not gonna spend their hard earned money on here to tell us their TOP SECRETS. They are going around all the Bars telling the ladies they are PILOTS

6. Most SIMMERS think Commercial is DULL and do not fly them.

VAPP is now already Calculated for us in the EFB but you must Compensate for WIND to not fall too soon or lose AP.
Here's an old Tutorial for VAPP & FLAPS but you need more than just this one remembering it is also GAMEY so beware.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsqkKCvS4Yc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFHBAoIOQ40
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPIrVMqd5zI&t=617s

VREF is not top secret by any means. They are widely known, published and are available for aircraft in their POHs. VREF will change with weight and balance. Usually modern avionics will calculate VREF for you if the W&B is entered correctly. There is no reason to hide VREF and it certainly is not a matter of job security. Anyone can know VREF but that does not mean they can fly the plane. Not by a long shot. It is absurd to suggest such things and completely disconnected from reality.

FAF is final approach fix BTW. By FAF you should be at VREF.

Where would FAF be? 5NM out of the runway??

[★Macman★]

Yes and around time of Gear Drop, the last 5nm Range Circle and you get Clear To Land at this range also by ATC in MSFS. Emanuel rushes many Landings due to many liking to see his Landings although due to them not all being for that part of the Tutorial he rushes and will come in faster due to this. It is not merely the VAPP but you absolutely must add Wind Compensation.

I also repeat myself for the GAMEY element as even though you add 5kts as minimum for any Wind in any direction but add 1/2 if it is Headwind (bear in mind AP Disconnects at >~23kts so you add a amax of 10kts above 20kts Headwind), that even so the game was once bugged to Disconnect way too easily even when set correct as you had immediate Wind Changes upon Landings. It all seems tame now and frankly dull but IRL there can be sudden changes from Head to Tail e.g. Dubai and can cause a GO-AROUND. An accident resulted in this as once rear wheels touched it did not allow TOGA.

[ZombieHunter]

Originally posted by conorferdyjackson:

Originally posted by ZombieHunter:

VREF is not top secret by any means. They are widely known, published and are available for aircraft in their POHs. VREF will change with weight and balance. Usually modern avionics will calculate VREF for you if the W&B is entered correctly. There is no reason to hide VREF and it certainly is not a matter of job security. Anyone can know VREF but that does not mean they can fly the plane. Not by a long shot. It is absurd to suggest such things and completely disconnected from reality.

FAF is final approach fix BTW. By FAF you should be at VREF.

Where would FAF be? 5NM out of the runway??

FAF is indicated on the approach plate.