Shotgun+Axe VS AA-12 paired with HS on Support Specialist.

[Night_Sniper]

I want to hear your opinion about the Support Specialist loadout. Note that I am by no means the best SS out here, but Im not a complete newbie either.

We all know the classic Lvl6 AA-12 & Hunting Shotgun combo. Heavy, reliable and extremely devastating. But here is the thing, I never really liked AA-12, mainly due to... questionable damage per single shot it deals. I also am always bothered by the fact I have 2 (or more) weapons assigned to the same key, which makes switching in a pinch a little troublesome.

However, I rememberred a couple old videos where the person was carrying a combination of a Fire Axe and Shotgun instead of AA-12. Axe was a great substitute in killing single enemies without spending precious ammunition, but more importantly, allowed amazing Scrake takedowns with some predamage, quick flinch with an axe and Hunting shotgun fire. Fleshpounds were not much of a trouble either, as long as you have grenades and, lets accept it, Support Specialist has a silly amount of them.

For a while I've been playing with this combination. And it perfectly suits me: killing half a dozen of clots and berserkers in a shot, flinching scrakes, switching between weapons - all that feels great. I finally can feel the power in my shots - the one thing AA-12 lacks in my eyes. Plus, I stopped running out of ammo, I just use way less than I had to use with AA-12. (I know semi-auto exists)

But all that comes at a cost... Apparently, I am now "a noob who cant sell weapons" whenever I join a server. And I have to prove them wrong ofc.
I get it, AA-12 is powerful, its mainstream, but Ive been told to buy it so many times I don't think I can even count at this point.

What is the clearly superior™ quirk of AA-12 that I am missing? Why is the other combination not allowed? It has proven to be worth taking on HoE included so far.

[devious goon]

AA-12 is a failsafe option more than anything for when things go bad, definitely loses it's usefulness if you are a competent player with a strong team

[Night_Sniper]

Originally posted by arakatsuma:

AA-12 is a failsafe option more than anything for when things go bad, definitely loses it's usefulness if you are a competent player with a strong team

Wait, so, basically... AA-12 is more of a "Im not confident enough to experiment" gun?
This may have sounded kinda rude, but I didnt mean it, just can't phrase better.

[naksiloth]

You're not missing anything with AA12 if you skip it. You can do the same speed kill combos against Scrake and Fleshpound with AA12, it just takes abit pre-damage to work it out. Its edge over the other shotties are its tight spread to eliminate trash around a bigger target or silence Sirens with well timed shots as it's fully automatic.
AA12's weak point is lacking ammo as you pointed out, also lower per shot damage contributes to it if you compare the stats. Even though ammo pool looks aplenty, it's not the most efficient weapon to clear stray trash off from you for the long run. You are bound to pack it with a heavier pistol to pick off single targets and machete to flinch combo, which not many been fond of.

It's a matter of preference, as you're not entitled to like its strong points so much to ignore the drawbacks. You may become an excellent trash sweeper behind a big specimen when you had to pass it to your winger (sharp or another support) and gain slightly more effective range but ammunition is a problem as picking single targets is wasteful now and machete flinches are harder to pull compared to katana or fire axe.

[Night_Sniper]

Originally posted by lazysiloth:

You're not missing anything with AA12 if you skip it. You can do the same speed kill combos against Scrake and Fleshpound with AA12, it just takes abit pre-damage to work it out. Its edge over the other shotties are its tight spread to eliminate trash around a bigger target or silence Sirens with well timed shots as it's fully automatic.
AA12's weak point is lacking ammo as you pointed out, also lower per shot damage contributes to it if you compare the stats. Even though ammo pool looks aplenty, it's not the most efficient weapon to clear stray trash off from you for the long run. You are bound to pack it with a heavier pistol to pick off single targets and machete to flinch combo, which not many been fond of.

It's a matter of preference, as you're not entitled to like its strong points so much to ignore the drawbacks. You may become an excellent trash sweeper behind a big specimen when you had to pass it to your winger (sharp or another support) and gain slightly more effective range but ammunition is a problem as picking single targets is wasteful now and machete flinches are harder to pull compared to katana or fire axe.

Ah, thank you. This surely clears up the image for me. The situation is a little more complicated than looked upon at first.

Well, guess as its a matter of preference, I prefer to chonk down enemies in groups, at distances where accuracy isnt the greatest concern.

Thank you again, enjoy some pancakes!

I wont delete the thread, lets see what others have in mind.

[IceBeam]

Originally posted by Night_Sniper:

We all know the classic Lvl6 AA-12 & Hunting Shotgun combo. Heavy, reliable and extremely devastating.
But all that comes at a cost... Apparently, I am now "a noob who cant sell weapons" whenever I join a server. And I have to prove them wrong ofc.
I get it, AA-12 is powerful, its mainstream, but Ive been told to buy it so many times I don't think I can even count at this point.
What is the clearly superior™ quirk of AA-12 that I am missing? Why is the other combination not allowed? It has proven to be worth taking on HoE included so far.

I've never heard of the [Fire Axe + Shotgun] combo being somehow "not allowed" on HoE or AA-12 being mandatory. Support Specialist has more than 2 optimal loadouts, and not all of them have AA-12:

• HSG-1 + Hunting Shotgun + MK23 + Katana/Axe/Machete
  
• AA-12 + Hunting Shotgun + MK23 + Machete
  
• AA-12 + HSG-1 + MK23 + Katana/Axe/Machete
  
• AA-12 + HSG-1 + LAR + Machete (using optimized weapon switching keybinds is encouraged)
  
• Combat Shotgun + Hunting Shotgun + MK23 + Katana/Machete (recommended only for waves 9-10 when multiple Fleshpounds can show up at once)

HSG-1 can be replaced with the starting pump-action Shotgun in every loadout. Performance-wise, HSG-1 is a better option, but the starting Shotgun is a decent weapon as well, and it can act as a stopover until you get the HSG-1.

Originally posted by Night_Sniper:

Axe was a great substitute in killing single enemies without spending precious ammunition, but more importantly, allowed amazing Scrake takedowns with some predamage, quick flinch with an axe and Hunting shotgun fire. Fleshpounds were not much of a trouble either, as long as you have grenades and, lets accept it, Support Specialist has a silly amount of them.

For a while I've been playing with this combination. And it perfectly suits me: killing half a dozen of clots and berserkers in a shot, flinching scrakes, switching between weapons - all that feels great. I finally can feel the power in my shots - the one thing AA-12 lacks in my eyes. Plus, I stopped running out of ammo, I just use way less than I had to use with AA-12. (I know semi-auto exists)

AA-12 is less powerful than the starting Shotgun, Combat Shotgun, and HSG-1 in terms of damage per single shot. However, it is better in terms of sustained damage (per multiple shots), and it has less downtime between shots. It's the only weapon that solves many issues with shotguns as a weapon class:

• No pump animation, meaning that there's less downtime between shots. This lets you handle panic situations better, kill squads of trash zeds that are spread out without switching to another weapon, pre-damage Fleshpounds during grenade combos faster, and cancel Screams of multiple Sirens at the same time.
  
• It's magazine-fed, meaning that you do not need to load the shells one by one. You load a box with 20 shells and do it faster than inserting 8 individual shells into a tube-fed shotgun.
  
• It's a hybrid weapon, meaning that it's great at both trash cleaning and large zed killing. When it comes to other shotguns, you have to pick one. For instance, HSG-1 is great for trash cleaning, but it's poor for dealing with large zeds. Hunting Shotgun is an excellent large zed killing weapon, but it's rather poor at dealing with crowds of trash zeds.

Combined with the Hunting Shotgun, it turns into a great combo weapon for dealing with multiple Fleshpound and multiple Scrakes.

Its main weaknesses are the relatively low damage per pellet (combined with what is essentially the starting Shotgun's spread) and weight, but both of them can be remedied.

Aside from that, I'm seeing the following issues that originate elsewhere.

1. Neither of the loadouts you've mentioned has a strong handgun to conserve ammo. You're saying that having an Axe lets you kill single enemies without wasting ammunition. You can't take an Axe with the [AA-12 + Hunting Shotgun] loadout, but that's not the issue here. You're running out of AA-12 ammo quickly because you use it like a Commando's rifle. Instead of doing that, pick off individual trash zeds with an off-perk MK23 or Handcannon and reserve AA-12 for groups of trash zeds and large zed takedowns.

2. You're claiming that having an Axe lets you flinch Scrakes. That's true, but the [AA-12 + Hunting Shotgun] combination lets you do it, too. It leaves enough space for a handgun and a Machete. Machete can flinch Scrakes with alt-fire head hits. While a Fire Axe lets you flinch Scrakes with body hits, you shouldn't count on always having access to an Axe. In HoE games with randoms, you might be one death away from losing it, and getting it back isn't going to be a cheap option. Playing a Berserker for 1 wave mid-game just to get a free Axe can make you a detriment to the team as well. Practice with Machete (doesn't cost a lot to obtain) in test environments, and you will not have to rely on costly body-flinch weapons (Axe, Katana).

3. The team is lacking a designated trash cleaner, and you have to deal with large volumes of trash zeds on your own. Substitute the Hunting Shotgun with HSG-1, leave AA-12 as it is, get an MK23 and a melee weapon to flinch Scrakes. You should have [AA-12 + HSG-1 + MK23 + Katana/Axe/Machete], an excellent trash cleaning loadout that still lets you deal with large zeds effectively. It has two good trash-cleaning shotguns and a generous ammo pool.

That said, the Combat Shotgun, the starting Shotgun, and the HSG-1 definitely feel more convenient when it comes to pre-damaging Scrakes before a finishing Hunting Shotgun blast.

[GunsForBucks]

Just to throw in an FYI

There is a key you can set for switching to last weapon/item. By default it is unbound. Makes it a lot smoother for swapping weapons or swapping off injector etc.

Once you get used to using it, it is hard to live without it ha ha

[IceBeam]

When you carry AA-12 & Hunting Shotgun, you can replace your default slot 3 bind with this:

set input x GetWeapon BoomStick | SwitchWeapon 3

Substitute "x" with the key of your choice.

The default bind for slot 3 looks like this:

set input x SwitchWeapon 3